early European pitch standards?

[jacobg]

Hello all,
I have an unmarked 3-valve rotary Bb oval baritone aka tenorhorn, baryton, or kaiser baritone. Although it plays relatively in tune with itself, it is quite sharp, and with the slide all the way in is nicely in the key of B.
I know that the US used to have 2 pitch standards until the 30's. This instrument doesn't look that old, nor is it American. I would guess it's from the 40's or 50's. It has none of the engraved valve caps or detailed notches on the S shaped connection rods like other horns I've seen from the 20's and 30's. Also, I've played many of these instruments, from the Czech Republic, Ukraine, and Germany, and none of them had this problem with pitch.
Was there a European high pitch? When did it last?
Is it possible to convert something like this to modern pitch?

[Chuck(G)]

Yes there was "high pitch" for bands, even in Europe. I've even seen an old English euphonium with a HP/LP switch valve.

A friend has a dePrins BBb that was made in the 60's that is rigged for HP running.

[winston]

.

[imperialbari]

Your description perfectly fits a band instrument from the Austrian-Hungarian double monarchy, which ended with the end of WWI. The high pitch there was much higher than the high pitches in the Anglo-Saxon countries (A=459).

The A-H band pitch was well over A=466, which is the frequency of modern Bb.

To salvage the older instruments for usage with the modern standard A=440 a lot of the smaller instruments were equipped with pigtails between the mouthpiece and the leadpipe receiver. The larger instruments were equipped with an extra loop in the tuning slide or had the tuning slide elongated in various ways. I have a Cerveny rose brass Kaiser Bariton with a sock-shaped tuning slide bow.

Lots of samples to be found in my brass galleries.

Your instrument most likely is made in Bohemia, the northern part of modern Czechia.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

.................. Klaus

Klaus! Where have you been for the last 9 months? It's nice to see you posting again.

[jacobg]

Do those kind of tuning slide modifications, pigtails, etc. affect the instrument's playing quality?

[windshieldbug]

Do those kind of tuning slide modifications, pigtails, etc. affect the instrument's playing quality?

No more than the High/Low Pitch adjustments that were used on American instruments last century

[jacobg]

On a related topic, does anyone know where I can get one of those form-fitting bags that are so common for these intstruments in Europe? For that matter, where can I get any kind of case, soft or hard, for an oval shaped baritone in the United States or online?

[imperialbari]

Do those kind of tuning slide modifications, pig-tales, etc. affect the instrument's playing quality?

Yes! The proportions between cylindrical and conical portions of the bore are getting changed.

The pigtails probably are the worst ones, as they are placed in part of the bugle, where the exactness of the bore progression is extremely critical for matters like response, sound, and the being in tune with itself of the main bugle.

The tuning slide elongations probably will come out more gently on a 4 valve Kaiser Bariton, which anyway is designed to handle long additions of cylindrical valve tubing. I don't complain the playability of my Cerveny Kaiser Bariton.

It must be remembered, that Germany and Austria-Hungary didn't loose WWI because enemy armies rolled them over. They lost because their inner economy imploded. Economists have calculated, that if Germans had eaten more bread, potatoes, and vegetables instead of meat, then they hadn't lost WWI.

The result was extreme poverty. In such times any sort of entertainment is much in demand. In stead of discarding the high pitch instruments, which were also used in dance bands, these were converted and used until new ones were affordable.

An anecdote about the necessity of entertainment in tough times.

In 1943 the German occupation army interned as many members of the still in-function, but forced into passivity, Danish army, as they could get their hands on. Including many of the members of the band of the Royal Guard, which were all non-combattant soldiers.

The bandmaster went to the German headquarter and told them to release his musicians, if they didn't want a popular uproar. The core of the wind sections in the many Copenhagen dance bands was formed by the members of the Royal Guard band. The musicians were released immediately.

Klaus

[Tubatoad]

.................. Klaus

Klaus! Where have you been for the last 9 months? It's nice to see you posting again.

Ditto!!