Wessex Champion EEb Intonation Issues

[EPtuba]

Hello everyone!

Recently I purchased a very lightly used Wessex 3+1 EEb from a private seller for cheap - no dents, intact plating, etc. After a couple months of getting used to the horn, I've noticed the middle-low register of the horn tends very sharp and is a touch hard to slot, while the compensated alternative fingerings are pretty much right on the money. I know that the previous owner had troubles with sharpness in this register too.

With all slides pushed in, the open note Eb2 rests at about 30 cents sharp and can drift over 50 cents sharp. I can lip it down to be in tune, but it really is a bit of a chore. Pulling the MTS all the way out changes this surprisingly little, as if it's fighting my attempts to correct it. Meanwhile, fingering Eb2 as 14 is really nicely in-tune. If I switch quickly between 14 and 0 for this note such that my embouchure remains constant, it sounds like I'm trying to play the theme to "Jaws." Even the note C2 bizarrely enough is much more in tune as 134 as opposed to 12. I can play an almost perfectly in tune Eb major scale for by holding down the 4th valve and using BBb fingerings. But using the "natural" fingerings of the EEb tuba it feels a bit wonky and tends sharp the whole way.

So what gives? Can any other EEb players attest to the non-comp fingerings being much sharper than their comp equivalents? I'm also using a Wick 3L which is supposedly a good fit for this kind of horn, which I totally believe as the intonation was even wonkier with my old Schilke. I imagine that a 4th valve leak could cause these issues. I plugged the MTS and blew through the horn just get a rough idea of the valve pressurization. I could definitely hear the faintest low pitch whirring if I blew hard enough. I want to say that the combinations with the 4th valve engaged felt a touch tighter and better sealed, but this might just be confirmation bias. The only hissing I got was with 3rd valve combos, but this sounds like just the slightest water key leak, and 3rd valve fingerings aren't noticeably different from any other ones while playing.

I know this is a cheap Chinese horn and "you get what you pay for" but I want to make the most of it, even if it means paying for repairs or modifications. So, any advice would be appreciated!

[Dan Tuba]

That's very interesting... I have owned one, and played several. I never encountered any rogue intonation quirks with any of the Champions that I have played. The design itself usually offers good intonation

Maybe it's like you said, a leak or something stuck in the tuba. If everything is as it should be, that tuba should offer good intonation.

[GeoffC_UK]

Morning EP,
I've played a EEb compensator 3+1 for most of my playing life.
Besson or B&H made rather than Wessex.
What I would expect is that, in principle and all things being equal......
> Tune my horn in its middle register,
> Leave slides alone,
> Lower register remains in-tune due to compensation (4v conventional fingering).
> Upper register gets more and more out of tune the higher you go, so alternative fingering is needed to keep in-tune.

Clearly, I'm simplifying things, but it certainly sounds like something is not quite right with yours.
Dan's suggestion that there's something mechanical or rogue stuck in there, but, if its a very early model of theirs or been poorly modified.....??..... guessing, though.

[Snake Charmer]

Easiest way too look for leaks is hosing water through the leadpipe with the complete instrument (all valve and slides in situ). I place the horn lying in the shower, bell downwards. Start without pressing valves and look along the entire horn for water coming out. Then press the valves (one at a time) and look for leaks at the valve slides, at the end valve four in comination with 1 - 3. Have a look for all slides, specially when using warm water they might fall out from the pressure. I usually secure them with some rubber band.
If you don't find a leak this way there is none, but at least you have a clean horn afterwards!
When emptying the tuba after rinsing take care of the weight and the amount of water coming out, be prepared for some accidentally flooding. I normaly strip off my pants and socks before doing this
Some leaks are hiding well, so have a special look between the valves and other tight places.

[EPtuba]

I contacted the original owner and apparently the issue has been present ever since it was first shipped to him. This means that whatever is going on (leak, blockage) it's most likely a factory defect. He pointed me to Don Sawday though who seems to be a magician when it comes to restoring tubas. I can't wait to see what he has to say!

[barry grrr-ero]

I take it the 'original owner' didn't bother to mention this problem when they had it up for sale (?).

[EPtuba]

It wasn't mentioned until I met with him to play test the thing, and even then I feel he undersold the issue. At the time it blew relatively in tune, I'm guessing because it was chilly enough that day to flatten out the range. It wasn't until I really had a lot of time with the horn that I realized how off the intonation really was. But unless the repair cost is several thousand dollars, I won't be too upset. Total costs would still be way below retail price. Still, this is definitely a lesson in purchasing used horns. I'm just curious as to why he didn't take advantage of Wessex's customer service while he still could.

[2ba4t]

This is unusual because this format comp EEb is traditionally flat. We always would have a couple of inches taken off the back U bow. But that was the old Boosey & Hawkes design - tinkered with over the generations.

There are two issues. 1.Is the beast out of tune with itself or 2. is it flat re the rest of the world? If you can play all the alternative fingerings in tune with itself then you need to add inches to the back bow - U shape below the valves at the back). So Bb should be identical as 0, 1-3 and 4. Eb3 should be 0 and 23. F a tone higher 1, 1-3, 4. G - 0, 12, 3, Ab - 1, 1-3, 4. As to Eb2 - is F a tone higher OK as 1-3, 4 and 134. And of course, the old nasty - is that F and the octave above intune.

If it is in tune with itself fine - lengthen it or make it into an F tuba. If it is not in tune with itself, I would sell it - explaining the problem.

[EPtuba]

Update:

After a deep chemical cleaning, valve lapping, and leak fix on the 3rd valve slide, I'm disappointed to say that the horn plays exactly the same as before. The open Eb is still easily 40 cents sharp, with heavy lipping required to get it in tune (which degrades the tone and stability severely). I contacted Wessex once but they never replied - expected as I'm not a direct customer. Might try again as a hail Mary.

I honestly can't think of any remaining problem besides a fundamental design flaw - bad taper, bad lead pipe, slides cut too short, etc. The most recent shop I went to promised a "free diagnosis" and "would not repair without my approval" but ended up doing it anyway, and at no small cost. And yet, I still don't know what's causing the problem. It's just been a very disheartening experience.

I suppose there's nothing left to do now besides make the most of it and sell it when the timing seems right.

[Doug Elliott]

Assuming no leaks it's either a design flaw or more likely assembled with a wrong part. The biggest clue is that it is in tune as a BBb. Look at the tubing immediately after the 4th valve. That's where the expansion starts, where it starts changing from basically cylindrical through the valves to basically conical. I would suspect something is too big in that area.

[Kermit]

You should shoot me an email again with what finish the horn is. I think we have longer MTS available at the warehouse for a relatively nominal fee including shipping.

[barry grrr-ero]

Pardon me for butting in, but it seems to me that you should replace the MTS free of charge. The 'good will' alone would be well worth it to you in receiving good publicity in return.

[MKTuba]

I borrowed a wessex champion for a few years and got the opportunity to play the solo model a few years ago. I remember the wessex had decent intonation But some really weird quirks and just wasn’t even throughout the range of the instrument. The solo model eb had terrible intonation. It may have been the mouthpiece but I really don’t think so.

[Kermit]

Pardon me for butting in, but it seems to me that you should replace the MTS free of charge. The 'good will' alone would be well worth it to you in receiving good publicity in return.

While I generally agree with you, this is not really my call to make. Additionally, this is literally what our 3 year warranty is for. Yea, it's non-transferrable, like most warranties, but you do have quite some time to get stuff like this resolved as the original purchaser.

[EPtuba]

I borrowed a wessex champion for a few years and got the opportunity to play the solo model a few years ago. I remember the wessex had decent intonation But some really weird quirks and just wasn’t even throughout the range of the instrument. The solo model eb had terrible intonation.

That sums it up pretty well. Honestly, I think that the horn is fairly in tune with itself. Even the "bad" notes are within +/- 15 cents of some pitch center, probably around A = 446. It's just that the tendencies of the individual notes feel like they want to fight me in my attempt to play as in tune as possible. For example, while the 2nd-4th partial octave is good, the 2nd-3rd partial perfect 5th is a bit small, requiring me to consciously nudge Eb2 down and Bb2 up. To be fair, I've had this issue on my school's Miraphone BBb too, but it's just a tad more noticeable on the Wessex.

I think getting the longer tuning slide will make the thing much more workable though. I've already initiated the process of obtaining the slide from Wessex via Kermit here. The price discussed really is a pittance compared to what I've paid to have techs troubleshoot it.

[Tubatooter]

I think Doug Elliot has the right answer.....there is a wrong part in there, and it is a factory defect. Proving that is going to be difficult but is possible; you need to find another of the same model and compare measurements. Whether you can get Wessex to agree to fix it is another question entirely, but if you define the problem, possibly someone competent at tubas could find a way to replace the wrong part.