Input wanted regarding Eb tuba playing in British style brass band

[barry grrr-ero]

Hello. I'm playing Eb tuba in a pretty darn good British style brass band. The parts are fairly challenging for me, but playable. I'm playing on a Besson 983 . . . a front action, 4 valve compensating Eb tuba. The low register is plenty fat for the job, but I'm having trouble landing securely on the correct partial in the upper register. A lot of that has to do with getting used to any tone coming out of the bell, sounding a minor third higher than what's written (minus an octave or two). But some of that just has to do with my 'relationship' with the horn itself. The high register doesn't seem quite as good to me, as it normally is on good 3+1 style Eb tubas.

At the moment, I'm using a Loud LM-15, which was advertised as an Eb/F mouthpiece. I normally use that m.p. for jazz playing on my Wessex F cimbasso. I think I want to go with something even smaller in an effort to get better support in soft playing, as well as a bit more ease and agility in the upper register. A store in San Jose has a Denis Wick "Heritage" style 4L in stock. Is that mouthpiece actually too small for the job (30.5 across the cup)? A friend recommended a 3L, but here's what I'm thinking: The 4L might also be a good piece for my Wessex F cimbasso (when I want a more 'symphonic' sound) . . . maybe.

The other Eb part tuba player is using a piston valve Wessex F, along with the mouthpiece that came with that horn. I'm thinking a smaller mouthpiece might help me to better match the 983 to his Wessex F. Any and all input welcome.

[GeoffC_UK]

Morning
I have played in British-style brass bands in England for more years than I can remember.
Hear: https://youtu.be/JyuxBMrOnZU
Most of the very best UK bands have 4 x bass tubas playing on the same maker's horn and, sometimes, even all using the same mouthpiece.
Their goal is for a homogenous sound as a foursome, rather than four individuals playing together.
This is background rather in any attempt to answer your question directly.
So...

I would expect any horn that is compensated to be increasingly out of tune (standard fingerings) the higher it gets.
I would always start using alternate fingering the higher I went, using my compensated EEb horn in band.

During my years playing EEb I have used a Denis Wick 5, 3, and a Vincent Bach 24AW.
All of these are very popular in UK brass bands.
The smallest is the DW size 5 or 5L, or it was when I used it back in the 1980s.
Why did I stop using the DW 5? - simple... brass band scoring of an EEb bass (tuba) is not as, say, a wind band or orchestral tuba would be scored.
The brass brass band version stays in the mid to high register more often than not.
So, change took place when when I started orchestral playing and needed my EEb to head into the low register.

My advice is try not to spend too much cash chasing the right mouthpiece.
Work on getting your sound matched as close as you can with the others in your band's tuba team.
Tune your 983 and consider alternate fingerings to get in-tune with the others, especially as you go upwards.
You may find this helpful?: http://www.musica-orichalcinus.uk/bbtub ... gchart.pdf

Hope you get it sorted.

[Yane]

I also recently started playing in a British style band with an Eastman 853 similar to the 983. I second the recommendation of spending time with the tuner and alternate fingerings, I did and discovered some unexpected solutions. Wish I had that fingering chart a month ago! I struggled until I tried tuning Ebs sharp and lipping them down, which made most everything else line up easily, the opposite of my initial set-up.

[barry grrr-ero]

Thank you gentlemen, but tuning isn't the issue here. We're not having problems in that regard. The issue is the pursuit of achieving a better match in terms of 'weight of sound', and tone color. In the pursuit of that goal, I'm also looking for more ease and 'support' in soft playing, and more agility and less of that 'weight lifting' feel in the upper register. Whenever and wherever I play, I use my ear and don't tolerate myself being greatly out-of-tune. I know well enough about alternate fingerings.

Mr. GeoffC_UK, you inadvertently addressed my question when you explained why you yourself made a change in mouthpieces: "The smallest is the DW size 5 or 5L, or it was when I used it back in the 1980s . . . brass band scoring of an EEb bass (tuba) is not as a wind band or orchestral tuba would be scored. The brass brass band version stays in the mid to high register more often than not". Exactly! As a result, I will take a look at the DW5L and 4L pieces. I believe the 5 is roughly the same size as the 4, but with a smaller throat (I think . . not at all certain). If anyone can tell me more about the differences between the DW 4 and 5, I would be grateful.

Barry Guerrero

[GeoffC_UK]

Barry

I don't know the performance delta between size 4 and 5 for DW's.
I was at a trade stand the other day with a British manufacturer of mouthpieces.
The owner was there and I asked why they didn't loan mouthpieces to try-before-you-buy.
At one time they did, but this facility had been abused by some, so they stopped doing it.
Suspect that's what you need to remove the uncertainty in your own mind at this time.
My guess would be there would be a slight difference between 4 and 5, but not huge - others may know differently.
https://www.deniswick.com/wp-content/up ... -Chart.pdf

Personally, in mouthpieces, I prefer bowl and tulip shaped cups for their darker sound and don't like V-cone. I prefer wider rims for comfort (long band rehearsals) and expect to lose flexibility over a narrower rim. I prefer the softness 'feel' of gold to silver plate on my lips. But these are all my preferences, as mouthpiece choice is a very, very personal thing.

I would also add that weight, tone colour, and the ability to play softer is driven by horn-mouthpiece combo, for sure, but don't neglect your breathing.
If your breathing technique isn't good then you won't sound good.

I wish I could help more.

May be someone could start a tuba mouthpiece swap-exchange and save me the $$$ I've spent over the years.

G

[peter birch]

As I read your post, you want to improve at playing a bit higher and quieter. I am not sure either will be developed by changing mouthpieces. Soft playing is about control of air speed and requires more effort and support of breath not a smaller mouthpiece
If you are committed to Denis Wick mouthpieces, 3L or 2L are the sizes for an adult player on a full size Eb tuba. To extend the upper range - I am sure you know the answer to that

[barry grrr-ero]

Please, I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but the issue for me is not my tuning, nor my tone. If those things were not 'good', I would not have been invited to play in this particular brass band - it's a really good band. I was honest enough to admit that I sometimes land on the wrong partial. That's greatly because I'm not used to the transposition issue (the tone coming out a minor third higher, minus one or two octaves), as well as not having played Eb tuba in quite a while (I've been exclusive to a large CC tuba and F cimbasso in recent years). But in addition to that, my tone really 'carries' on the 983, and my low register is quite fat. That's without blowing hard at all. This is a bit in contrast to the first Eb tuba player, who gets a somewhat 'tighter' and 'drier' sound on his Wessex F (and he's a very good player). Obviously, a lot of this has to do having with me getting used to the 983 again. But in addition to all that, there's a reason why British brass band Eb tuba players have used smaller mouthpieces . . at least in the past. I would like to get more input on that particular issue. And if anybody knows the Dennis Wick line, I would like know if there are differences between the 4 and the 5 (American shank), other than the throat being a bit more open on the 4. Thank you.

[peter birch]

it is not true to say that British players use smaller mouthpieces, most Eb players will use a Denis Wick size 3 or 2, or a 24aw size mouthpiece, even the wick chart describes the 4 as a scaled down version of the 3 for younger players.
I guess that I am wondering what your issue is? I am not sure that it is possible or even desirable to sound like your colleagues F tuba (and a budget one at that) on a Besson professional model
I do think you have answered your own question, you just need to get used to the sound of your tuba ad n where written notes sit on it.

[barry grrr-ero]

Thank you, but the point is that I DO want to better match the first chair Eb tuba player's sound, in terms of 'weight of sound' and timbre. I already have numerous mouthpieces in the sizes you mentioned. And to counter what you've said here, I was close friends with an Eb tuba player from York. He played on a 3+1 Boosey&Hawkes (Imperial, I guess), and used a relatively tiny mouthpiece - smaller than most contrabass trombone mouthpieces. He had an ease of sound that simply floated across the room! His recitals at a northern CA state university were nearly packed, simply because his tone was so jaw-droppingly gorgeous. He didn't bother to use a bigger piece when playing in the symphonic band, and could be heard just fine. In fact, he simply couldn't understand the American 'peel the paint off the walls' approach to brass playing in general. Granted, he may have been a 'rare bird', but he had his fans and his tone was to die for (and not at all difficult to hear).

[GeoffC_UK]

Barry, well said

[2ba4t]

Barry, I sympathise. The 24AW explosion and big fat flat tuba sound explosion of ancient history (the 1960s - below) is how this has happened.

To match an F, I humbly suggest that you do that which I did for my 983. Completely ignore other people and especially mouthpiece manufacturers. Find the smallest, sharp-lipped narrow exit mouthpiece you possibly can. I was lucky and found a 1910 'Prototype' 'Bb' mouthpiece - deemed perfect for the BBb basses of that era!! It is smaller than any modern bass trombone mpc. Also, as below, if you want to invest in this approach, have a 'narrow as possible' mouthpipe made - perhaps interchangeable with the elephant size default.

My doctored 983 (1990s) sounds fabulous - almost like the original 15-inch bell Imperial Ebs. I immediately (25 years back) had my 983's mouthpipe changed to a far narrower bespoke one which (plus chopping the back U bend) helped intonation at the top and with the sound. You can sing like a bass nightingale, play 5 octaves, sound extremely loud and punchy, project your sound even when playing ppp and yes, move around easily right down to CCC etc. But for you, you can blend perfectly with lighter sounds. And of course it simply cannot sound like a 'proper' vast CC or BBb orchestral horn. It does have a much bigger sound with a huge mpc, but sounds deadened - even with vibrato and every endeavour.

In the 1960 - 70s Fletch wanted a 'huge' 'symphonic' sound on his EEbs originally. So he had the 21 inch bell made and went for the biggest available mouthpiece. This and lowering the mouthpipe - bringing the tuba higher in his lap - made it look bigger for foreign conductors used to the upright sousaphones we all must use. Then he of course quickly moved over to BBb and CC tubas.

Mouthpieces became big business and Wick soon cornered the British market with his unusual outer shape. Over time every possible configuration - including the oldest and most traditional - are now available from a plethora of makers. Amusingly, some of these sharper-lipped and shallower mouthpieces were scorned during the early years. A big, fat and flat sound was de rigor. Yes, you could play with a beautiful sound, but the old focussed, clean sound was despised.

The 983 is part of the problem, because they still build EEbs with too wide a bore in order to allow them to pretend to be CC or BBb. The 984 interestingly has a smaller bell and of course Wessex's various Eb models are now trying to recapture the beauty of the old sound. (But that sentence will make many spit in disgust.) All standard EEb compensators have lost the clarity and beauty of the old sound. They are just would-be BBbs. I imagine the EEb will die out in favour of more versatile small CCs as the British Brass band dies out for lack of sponsorship. A bleak future.

The new monster EEb Wessex are building might be an intriguing throw back to Fletch's earliest dreams.

[Yane]

Thanks for the history lesson.

[barry grrr-ero]

Thank you 2ba4t. As I don't own this horn (it's being lent to me by the director), I'm not at liberty to get it altered in any way. I'd love to see how yours turned out and looks. Anyway, I'll still go try the DW 3, 4 and 5. My 'original' thinking about the DW4L, is that because of its relatively open throat (8.27, I think) it might also be good on my F cimbasso - something like a bigger contrabass trombone mouthpiece. It was just a thought. Other folks are advising me to try to the DW 3, and I'm sure that's more practical advice. Thank you again.

[barry grrr-ero]

Given that we're down to the final rehearsal and concert (May 6), I've decided to go with a Dillon/Pat Sheridan Geib that actually came with this horn (I never noticed it down in the music pocket of the bag). I practiced with it today, and the results were definitely better than when using my Loud LM-15 (which I love on my F cimbasso for jazz stuff). Thank you everyone for the input.