Seventh Tour de France win for Lance Armstrong

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Rick Denney
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Post by Rick Denney »

mog976 wrote:You are totally off-base and behind the times in terms of bike frame construction. But that's all that I know for sure. I think the current bike frame manufacturing processes involve layering carbon fibers on top of each other.
Well, not quite.

They arrange the carbon fibers in a pattern designed to make best use of their high tensile strength (and utter lack of compressive strength), and then pull them tight over a mandrel. Then, they put it in a mold and pull a vacuum to get rid of the air. They then feed the mold with epoxy binder, which fills in all the voids. When the epoxy cures, it's a solid composite material. They pull the mandrel out, machine the ends to fit together, and then epoxy the sections together. Kestrel forms the epoxy by using a little pressure to force the epoxy into the carbn layup, keeping the middle empty using an inflatable mandrel. Their frames are made in one piece.

Most pro bikes are made of titanium or aluminum. The Cervelo that Basso rode in the time trial is aluminum, for example. It's been a while since steel was used in the pro peloton to much extent, but the Merckx MX-Leader was the last to go. My MX-Leader is in Deutsche Telekom (now T-Mobile) team pink and black colors, and dates from about '96. It's just like the bike Jan Ullrich might have used in his first season or two with his team. The current Merckxes in the pro peloton are titanium, as are the Colnagos, Bianchis, and other bikes I saw on the Tour coverage.

Rick "also a bike nerd" Denney
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ThomasDodd wrote:This is very telling. If there is a minimum weight, that means they could weigh less, and still survive the races. I'm guessing without a minimum, they'd be under 10lbs total already.
They put a minimum weight for safety reasons. Lighter bikes have this nasty tendency to break.

I doubt that any of the bikes used in the road stages of the Tour are pushing the 15-pound limit to closely. As I said before my Trek 5500, which is lighter than many of the bikes used in the Tour, weighs 18 pounds built up with Shimano Dura Ace stuff from a few years ago. The little guys will have smaller bikes that might be a few ounces lighter, but that's all. A bike that breaks is both dangerous and uncompetitive.

The rule is there primarily for the time-trial specialty bikes. Those don't have to be stiff enough to survive a bunch sprint, nor do they need things like really good brakes. So, they use components shaved down to nothing to get right to the minimum weight. The teams may also use similar bikes for the mountain stages, but they retire them quickly. I've heard the statement, "The only thing worse than descending in that wobbly ultralight frame is climibing without it".

Rick "who has built up a 15-pound bicycle, but only for a time trial for a small rider" Denney
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Post by mog976 »

Thanks for the corrections :oops: . Do you know if any of the boys in the pro ranks are riding on magnesium these days?
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Post by ThomasDodd »

Rick, perhaps the rear wheell of my "10 speed" from the early 80's then.

But, If not for the min weight I think they could get the weight down further. Lighter weigh components come to mind. Using thinks like kevlar threads for the cables, and push pull derailers (no springs) also made of composites or better strength/weight metals.

As to wheels. The wire spoke is still in use, on bikes, motorcycles, and even cars. But, on cars it's not as common now. Tastes have changed. I remember "MAG" wheels in the 80's being the rage for frestyle and BMX. Stronger, and less likely to warp. They were thick heavy plastic, but I'm sure there are better designs.

I think feel is important though, and a solid wheel is going to feel different. hile you and I might not bnotice, Lance and his ilk could. I saw that Lance ages the inner tuber for his tires, like 6 years. I doubt I'd notice the differce in the tube either.

What I do know is I'd like to replace that 24" or 26" bike I had back then. Every thing in my price range (under $150) is mountain bike style, with wide tires (2.25") and flat handle bars. I want something like this but with the quality/cost of this. :)
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Post by Shockwave »

Advances in bicycle design were banned by the sanctioning body UCI in the 1930's after someone outran the competition on a bike of superior design. Because of that decision, people still ride hunched over on bicycles of archaic design causing them to suffer from impotence, neck strain, and back strain. The farthest a UCI bicycle has gone in 1 hour is 35 miles, while the farthest any bicycle has gone is 52 miles. After only one hour the modern bicycle is 17 miles ahead of the UCI bike! The UCI bike weighs a full 10kg less than the speedbike, but it still doesnt have an advantage going uphill until the grade becomes greater than 5%.

If cycling is truly about the riders and not the bicycles or speed, they could all ride identical beach cruisers and the sport would be better off. Marvelling at the latest carbon fiber road bike it seems to me is like marvelling at a carbon fiber stagecoach or a titanium suit of armor.

-Eric
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Post by Rick Denney »

Shockwave wrote:The UCI bike weighs a full 10kg less than the speedbike, but it still doesnt have an advantage going uphill until the grade becomes greater than 5%.
Bah.

Yes, you can make a supine-position fully-faired human-powered vehicle go much faster than a conventional bicycle. Air drag is by far the limiting element with human-powered vehicles.

But I have ridden along with folks who have recumbant frame, listing to them tell me all the same things you said in their post. When someone wanted to sprint for the city limit sign, they went off the back so fast they might as well have been screwed to the pavement. The bike that works for making maximum sustained speed in a time trial is not at all the bike that can accelerate quickly by letting the human use his weight to increase short-term power.

The UCI (and other bodies) don't allow fairings because it makes things go faster solely for the sake of going faster. The point is to get across the line first in as entertaining a way as possible, not just to go faster. Save it for the HPV land-speed records.

And I've never been beaten to the top of a hill by a recumbant rider, most of whom have superior hill-climbing ability to me in absolute terms (at over 200 pounds, I have never been and never will be anything but a slug on uphills).

The UCI doesn't dictate the shape of normal consumer bikes, but those still seem to follow the traditional shape. There's a reason for that, and UCI conspiracy isn't it.

Rick "who has a triathlon bike that is not UCI-legal but that would appear so to most non-cyclist observers" Denney
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ThomasDodd wrote:But, If not for the min weight I think they could get the weight down further. Lighter weigh components come to mind. Using thinks like kevlar threads for the cables, and push pull derailers (no springs) also made of composites or better strength/weight metals.

As to wheels. The wire spoke is still in use, on bikes, motorcycles, and even cars. But, on cars it's not as common now. Tastes have changed. I remember "MAG" wheels in the 80's being the rage for frestyle and BMX. Stronger, and less likely to warp. They were thick heavy plastic, but I'm sure there are better designs.
As to the first point, Simplex made a Delrin derailleur 50 years ago. It was wondefully light. But it was not exactly known for durability. Metal is hard to beat for small, machined parts that must be stiff and resistant to wear, particularly those that are loaded in bending and compression. I think you'll find that the modern derailleur is remarkably light. Most of the components on bicycles routinely break when abused, suggesting to me that they are quite as light as they can be without a lot of risk. When you consider the mechanical force put on the bicycle, 16 pounds is already in the silly-light category.

As to wheels--been there, done that. I have ridden everything from traditional 36-spoke wheels with ultra-light box-section rims (rims that weigh around 200 grams--7 ounces) to solid disks. The disks are no less comfortable than the spoked wheels, which are extremely stiff when built properly (which requires the spokes to be loaded to perhaps a half of yield strength). But they are squirrely in a cross wind and the sound they make on bumps unnerves me. I used carbon-composite solid-spoked wheels for triathlon. They were not particulatly light (nothing is lighter than a spoked wheel with the right components), but they were as slipper in the air as disk--nearly. And a crosswind didn't push me around.

Here they are on my bike, from the middle of the 112-mile bike leg of the Ironman USA triathlon in Lake Placid (this is my titanium time-trial bike):

Image

Triathlon drives equipment as much as road riding, and there is no weight limit there. Tri-bikes might be up to a couple of pounds lighter, but really reducing drag has a dramatically larger effect than reducing weight. The bike above weighs 17 pounds.

Rick "who will never be in that kind of shape again" Denney
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Post by Shockwave »

Faster racing is more entertaining, but there are other ways to increase the entertainment value...

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-Eric
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Shockwave wrote:Faster racing is more entertaining, but there are other ways to increase the entertainment value...
All you need to do is put gears on those suckers so you can accelerate fast, climb mountains, and also maintain a high speed. With the fixed-gear bike, you get your choice of one or perhaps two. That's what did the high-wheel cycles in--gearing was limited by the size of the wheel.

When I watch a race, I want to see the low-gear climbing and the explosions during sprints and attacks, neither of which are very exciting on recumbent or high-wheel bicycles.

Rick "who often enough rides a fixed-gear track bike on the local paved bike trails" Denney
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Post by Shockwave »

Rick Denney wrote:
Shockwave wrote:Faster racing is more entertaining, but there are other ways to increase the entertainment value...
All you need to do is put gears on those suckers so you can accelerate fast, climb mountains, and also maintain a high speed...
When I watch a race, I want to see the low-gear climbing and the explosions during sprints and attacks, neither of which are very exciting on recumbent or high-wheel bicycles.
First you say additional speed doesnt add any excitement to the race, so recumbents are unnecessary. Then you say adding more speed does add excitement, but only at a slow speed up a steep hill or accelerating. By amazing coincidence, the two things you value in a race are the only two that your kind of bike is ever so slightly better at. By another amazing coincidence, the things that your bike is bad at don't matter. That's pretty fishy. Of course you could argue that the reason the upright road bike meets all your criteria is that it is the perfect vehicle for the job. Considering that it's a racing bike, races are measured by average speed, and the upright road bike isnt even close to holding any records for average speed, it's even more fishy.

-Eric "who likes coke but wont argue that it's nutritious" Bamberg
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Shockwave wrote:First you say additional speed doesnt add any excitement to the race, so recumbents are unnecessary. Then you say adding more speed does add excitement, but only at a slow speed up a steep hill or accelerating. By amazing coincidence, the two things you value in a race are the only two that your kind of bike is ever so slightly better at.
Yup. It's a big conspiracy. Me and the UCI are in cahoots. They tell me I'm supposed to like acceleration and the on-the-edge drama of the big climbs, and so that's what I like because it helps me support their restrictions on bike design.

Watching recumbent riders is like watching grass grow. Who cares if they are going fast? You get no sense of speed. Why? Because there are no big accelerations, no side-to-side bike throwing during a sprint--in fact--no sprints to speak of, and no out-of-the-saddle grinding up big climbs. They may BE fast, but they don't LOOK fast. There's a reason these are the parts of the courses most densely lined with spectators in the big tours. This is where you find the drama and excitement of bike racing.

It's the same reason why NASCAR (or, moreso, Formula One) is more exciting than Indy-car racing these days, though both use basically the same courses. The Indy cars are much faster, but the NASCAR races include a lot of wheel action that I don't see with the Indy cars. Even in car racing, however, measures are taken to limit the speed of the vehicles to make sure that what is exciting about watching a race doesn't get lost in attempts to merely go faster. These are professional sports that would wither and die if they didn't put the quality of the spectacle first and foremost in their thinking.

Having ridden recumbents, I can also say that they are an acquired taste in riding. I have climbed hills in a recumbent that made me wish I had a 15-tooth chainring, and I longed for the ability to get out of the saddle and sprint up the hill and get it over with. Steering many recumbents is an exercise in abstraction, with the only palliative factor being that you have less far to fall. I've been flamed by 'bent riders over such statements in the past, but that's my experience with them and I'm standing by it. I think there would be quite a bit fewer recreational riders (i.e., people, including kids, who just cruise their neighborhood streets) if all bikes were recumbent. If I had a bad back and could not ride a conventional bike, I'd ride a recumbent and be glad of the opportunity, but I don't think it's a bike for the masses.

That's another reason NASCAR is more popular than open-wheel racing--the cars look more like OUR cars, and we can relate to them more easily. Again, bike racing is a professional sport that must draw spectators to be successful.

There's a big difference between speed and quickness. For the sheer pleasure of riding and of watching bike races, I'll take the latter.

After the Ironman I went for a ride on my Merckx road bike. My time-trial bike has a forward position and is optimized (to the extent possible with me) for aerodynamic positioning. It is not UCI-legal but it does look like a conventional bike (it is legal in triathlon, of course). But it's not an easy bike to sprint because of the geometry. That first ride back on my Merckx, which is a sprinter's dream, filled me with such pleasure and excitement that the tri-bike has literally not been ridden since. It's still hanging on the wall with the Ironman numbers taped to it. I love the feel of acceleration when I get out of the saddle and sprint, despite that everyone else is leaving me behind.

Rick "who thinks mere speed is not the point" Denney
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Post by Rick Denney »

bloke wrote:Speaking of which...A few weeks ago (when our house was being re-roofed) my c. 1975 Gitane "Super Course" (nearly all-Campy with a brand-new pair of sew-ups, etc.) disappeared from the breezeway behind our house.

bloke "It's orange, so I may be able to see it from the street, if it ends up with a fenc...I mean 'pawn' shop."
Now that sucks, big time, even if I was no fan of Gitanes in the day. Try replacing those old Nuovo Record components now! You'll end up with a new bike you won't like as much.

Rick "sympathetic" Denney
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Post by Chuck(G) »

Well, what a shame if this story has any truth to it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_s ... 175650.stm

It'd be too bad if Armstrong acquired an asterisk after his record.
Mark

Post by Mark »

Chuck(G) wrote:Well, what a shame if this story has any truth to it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_s ... 175650.stm

It'd be too bad if Armstrong acquired an asterisk after his record.
The French just can't stand that an American is better than them. I would not put it past them to make the whole thing up.
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