Which Oil?

[tubeast]

Welcome,

Those are strange symptoms. I´d guess this shouldn´t happen with ANY brand of valve oil provided the correct type was used according to the valves your horn has. So what kind of valves are they ? Piston or rotors ?
And what does it say on the oil flask ?

Especially it´s strange that the valves will get sluggish AFTER SOME PLAYING. Wrong oil should work badly right from the start.

[BopEuph]

I'd say try cleaning them again; give the horn a bath (I have a bottlebrush that I use to clean them. You can find it at a local brewery or any store used for home beer making).

As to valve oil, there probably isn't any special one to worry about. I try to keep the same kind with my horn. Since it came with Hetman, that's what I use. I'd stay away from anything with dyes in it like Blue Juice anyway. They are great for marching bands (you can buy them in huge bottles), but the dye gets everywhere.

Nick

[SplatterTone]

I don't know anything about Pro-oil, but you might have a situation like I had with Viper oil. Viper oil has PTFE (Teflon) in it. Being a fan of PTFE for the car engines, I figured this would be a good thing for brass instrument valves. However, I slop oil BIG TIME into my horns, and the PTFE would form enough of a layer on the valves to cause them to drag. Since I'm not willing to completely abandon PTFE, I now mix about 25% Viper with about 75% Blue Juice and have had good results with that.

I suppose another possibility for jamming up valves is slide grease getting on them. For the record, I use Space Filler green label (the thick stuff) on the slides. After playing, I pull the slides out and store them open end down in a coffee can with paper towels in the bottom.

[MaryAnn]

If you want to try one step before giving the horn a bath, try slogging a bunch of lighter fluid in the valves. If there is slide grease or anything else petroleum-soluble in there, the lighter fluid will get it out. Then you can experiment with what weight of oil works without clanking or gumming.

I had this happen when I went from a very old horn to a very new horn....the thick oil I had been using in the old horn brought the new valves to almost a complete halt. Lighter fluid did the trick.

MA

[Dan Schultz]

We always used Kerosene on our marching horns.

Most non-synthetic valves oils are not much more than kerosene. Unscented lamp oil is a good substitute for conventional valve oil... and cheap, too! The biggest problem is with kerosene-based oils is when they eventually evaporate (and they will)... the valves are often left frozen up.

I've used Hetman's products for several years now and I find that my horns are pretty much ready to go when I pick them up... regardless of how long they have been idle. I'm not necessarily plugging Hetman's. However, for my style of playing, I find the synthetic lubricants the best.

[Rick F]

See this post. It may help:

Poll - Lubricants?
viewtopic.php?t=3545&highlight=hetman

There are 5 pages of discussion on valve oils.

[Dylan King]

Be careful not to swallow or inhale any of this stuff!!!

Then, do this...

Put Z-Max small engine formula on the pistons. Work it in. Play the horn for a while.



Then apply Marvel Mystery Oil on the pistons. And any other moving parts. This stuff also works great for slide pullers. Work the pistons again, until you can't stand it anymore!



Now, give it the Al Cass or other thin oil of your choice. I dig the Al cass oil best.

This done once a week, with Al Cass as my everyday stuff, keeps my horns tip-top, and moving fast and funky.

[SplatterTone]

It helps to brush your teeth and gargle with Slick 50 prior to playing.

[Chuck(G)]

How about this stuff?



They'll love to run their fingers through your hair!

[Dylan King]

Too much oil.

[Mitch]

I add an affirmative to the votes for Hetman's. I use the Classic. I first used it back around '97 when a student of mine who was a friend of Hetman gave me some to try. From the first time I put it on the valves, I throught it was better than anything else. At the time, I had a HB and had never experienced any valve problems, but the stuff just made the valves float. It also seemed to last forever. I'd oil my valves as much out of habit, not because the valves felt like they needed it.
If you're experiencing that much sticking/gumming, I'd recommend getting your horn in for a thorough cleaning, valves, casings and all. Do the valves, after they get to sticking, have any sort of white film? If so, the valves could simply be layered with mineral deposits/residue from your saliva. The problem you describe just sounds like something that needs more attention than just a different valve oil...

[Chuck(G)]

I would highly suggest not using the Z-Max mainly because its not made for brass instruments. Plus Al Cass valve oil not only doesn't work, but can harm the valves in the long run.

Exactly how does Al Cass harm the valves? Can you document your claim? I know some folks who have been using Al Cass for decades.

[ThomasP]

I haven't heard of direct damage caused from Al Cass, but I have heard that Al Cass essentially washes off right after being applied. It is carried off the vavle via the moisture created by your breath, this then leaves the valve unprotected and prone to damage. This is perhaps where the statement come from, or maybe there's something different and tubamessiah will elaborate on this.

[Chuck(G)]

AFAIK, Al Cass is nothing more or less than a blended petroleum oil. (Probably just white kerosene with some heavier fraction added). Yeah, it's pretty thin, but that shouldn't be a concern if you apply it regularly.

(Probably not a lot of difference between Al Cass and "buy it by the quart" Roche-Thomas valve oil).

[Joe Baker]

I haven't heard of direct damage caused from Al Cass, but I have heard that Al Cass essentially washes off right after being applied. It is carried off the vavle via the moisture created by your breath, this then leaves the valve unprotected and prone to damage. This is perhaps where the statement come from, or maybe there's something different and tubamessiah will elaborate on this.

I've heard that the Earth is flat and the Apollo astronauts only went to Arizona. I've heard that various amendments to the constitution weren't legally ratified. I've heard that an apple a day will keep the doctor away. Having heard ALL of these things, I believe NONE of them.

Al Cass is, simply, a lightweight petroleum-based oil. It is not the perfect oil for every purpose. I don't happen to use it myself (Blue Juice is my current fave). But someone would have to explain to me how moisture in the breath could instantly wash off a layer of oil between two VERY closely fitting parts before I'd believe it. Yes, it will evaporate much more quickly than synthetics, and thus it must be applied more often. But if it's applied regularly -- each time the horn is played, for example -- it will protect the valves from wear, which is what valve oil is supposed to do.
_____________________________
Joe Baker, whose Dad used to say "Don't believe everything you hear, and only half of what you see."

[ThomasP]

Notice the way I did present the information. I did say that I heard it, I never said that it was fact. I don't need a reason to know that I don't like Al Cass, but this some type of reason whether it's true or not. Again, I did present it as hearsay and never meant for it to be taken as more than what it is.

[Kevin Hendrick]

... I know some folks who have been using Al Cass for decades.

30+ years here

... if it's applied regularly -- each time the horn is played, for example -- it will protect the valves from wear, which is what valve oil is supposed to do.

That's exactly how I use it, and it works very well -- I've been using it that way since my Sear CC was new (in 1974), and the valves are still in good shape.

[Chuck(G)]

I work with Lee Stofer and we recently had a disscussion about Al Cass valve oil. He was telling me that Al Cass is more of a petroleum solvent not petroleum distillate. He said Al Cass is most like distilled kerosene. When the Al Cass is made they take the heavier part of the hydrocarbons out leaving the light part, which is why when using Al cass you have to oil the valves so often, the light part evaporates very quickly. When oiling the valves that often it starts leaving tiny scrathes on the valve itself, which in time will obviously slow the valves down. Also, if you breathe a lot of the Al Cass fumes in, it is potent enough that you can get chemical pnuemonia.
In the shop we have seen instruments come in that have Al cass on them which are normally more corroded and dry because it evaporates quickly. Where as we have used the Hetmans synthetic lubricants and gotten instruments back in the shop that we did two years ago and the valves look exactly like they did when we cleaned them the first time and they still work freely.

We all have tremendous respect for Lee, but I'm a bit chary about a "he said" claim, no offense intended.

I've already stated that I believe that most petroleum-based valve oils are largely white kerosene with some lightweight oils added to improve viscosity. Lee seems to share in this opinion.

Now, dirt is dirt and it doesn't come from oil, synthetic or organic. Anytime you have dirt in your valves, it's bad news, no matter what you're using to lubricate them. Dirt is abrasive and will do a number on your car's engine or your tuba's valves. Operating dry valves is just plain stupid, but there are some who think that the "Check Engine" light on their car's dashboard is the prettiest shade of red.

My take is that if you're using a synthetic lube that doesn't evaporate very fast, you're less likely to do the periodic cleaning that keeps dirt out of valves. That is, if you have lousy cleaniliness and maintenance habits, you're in for trouble no matter what you use on your valves.

It might be that the folks willing to shell out for the synthetic lubes are more fastidious with their instruments that those who use cheaper oils. I don't know and I haven't seen a study on this.

-----------------------

I searched the NIH database regarding kerosene and chemical pneumonia (not the same as viral or bacterial pneumonia, BTW). The only references that I could find were related to ingestion and aspiration of the liquid by children (it's a component of furniture polish, penetrating oils and a bunch of other household products) and fire-eaters (it's sometimes referred to as "fire-eater's pneumonia"). Nothing about acquiring chemical pneumonia by inahling valve oil fumes. If you know of any citations to the contrary, please post them. You'd be doing a great public service. I'm not about to use something that can rot my lungs.

As far as I know, there's no study on what happens if you drink a bottle of Hetman's and aspirate it into your lungs. (I'm not volunteering.) But I'll bet it isn't pleasant.

My point is that there is a lot of speculation and conjecture about valve oils (after all, they're a pretty high-profit-margin item). Claims are tossed around (by manufacturers among others) like there was no tomorrow.

(Yes, I've used synthetics on my horns and for me, petroleum-based valve oil (not Al Cass) seems to do the job for me.)

[Dylan King]

If you are worried about Al Cass damaging a horn, use an oil combination. See my previous post.

If you keep them clean, they won't get green.

[Ryan_Beucke]

I too think that Hetman's is the absolute best for my Yammy. However, I'm currently using Pro-Oil Hybrid because I have a big big bottle of it.