Bour-...blub-blub...-bon Street

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:56 pm

Memphis Minnie McCoy, 1929 wrote:f it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
And the water gonna come in, have no place to stay

Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan
Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan
Thinkin' 'bout my baby and my happy home

If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
And all these people have no place to stay

Now look here mama what am I to do
Now look here mama what am I to do
I ain't got nobody to tell my troubles to

I works on the levee mama both night and day
I works on the levee mama both night and day
I ain't got nobody, keep the water away

Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good
Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to lose

I works on the levee, mama both night and day
I works on the levee, mama both night and day
I works so hard, to keep the water away

I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me
I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me
I'm goin' back to my used to be

I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan
I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan
Gonna leave my baby, and my happy home

ai698 · Post by **ai698** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:14 pm

Just got the word. My National Guard unit is on standby to go to the area, if needed. I've also placed myself on a volunteer list if our unit needs to send anybody right now right now.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:41 pm

Wouldn't you know it, here in the south people cannot behave any better than in CA.

Really, what good is a 27" plasma TV going to do you in NO right now.

I agree with the bloger Chuck linked to. Looter should be shot on sight. Such scum is not needed down there.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:42 pm

ai698 wrote:Just got the word. My National Guard unit is on standby to go to the area, if needed. I've also placed myself on a volunteer list if our unit needs to send anybody right now right now.

Bless you Steve.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:34 pm

ThomasDodd wrote:Wouldn't you know it, here in the south people cannot behave any better than in CA.

Really, what good is a 27" plasma TV going to do you in NO right now.

I agree with the bloger Chuck linked to. Looter should be shot on sight. Such scum is not needed down there.

I completely agree. Some guy who sells his own stuff at a high price (because demand is high and supply is low) is roundly scorned as a "gouger", and will most likely server jail time; but a thousand low-life crooks can just break in and steal someone else's stuff, and law enforcement responds with a collective shrug. There is something terribly wrong with this picture. I'm not quite ready to shoot people on sight, but I sure hope some people are brought to justice for looting.

I take some consolation in this instance, in that the stuff would have been ruined by the flooding anyway in most cases, and (more so) that the crooks will have to leave it behind when they evacuate.
_________________________
Joe Baker, who isn't referring to people who took food.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:17 pm

Joe Baker wrote:
ThomasDodd wrote:I agree with the bloger Chuck linked to. Looter should be shot on sight. Such scum is not needed down there.
enforcement responds with a collective shrug. There is something terribly wrong with this picture. I'm not quite ready to shoot people on sight, but I sure hope some people are brought to justice for looting.

I was thinking more ofserious injury more than death. But the fact remain, these criminals are killing people. Forceing the authorities there to spend time controlling unrully crowds or protect property limits their ability to help those in need. Imaginge being trapped in you attic in 100 degree (outside) heat, and the resuers are dodging bullit for the looters down the street or are busy arresting looters across town.

I would hope a few criminals shot in the leg/shoulder would discourage others from risking such injury for a TV, DVD collection or a kid's piggy bank. But knowing the human condition, I doubt even shoot-to-kill orders would discourage them. At least it would require fewer people to handle the situation.

Kevin Hendrick · Post by **Kevin Hendrick** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:32 pm

the elephant wrote:I ain't dead yet.

Very glad to hear that!

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:39 pm

Interesting something someone told me about the looters. The female ones were taking things like food from the groceries and the male ones were taking cigarettes and alcohol.

I don't have a problem with people taking food that is going to spoil anyway, and eating it or giving it to people who do eat it. Or water, either, especially if they're going to die without it. But taking hard goods, or drugs and booze, yeah shoot 'em.
MA

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:54 pm

MaryAnn wrote:Interesting something someone told me about the looters. The female ones were taking things like food from the groceries and the male ones were taking cigarettes and alcohol.

I don't have a problem with people taking food that is going to spoil anyway, and eating it or giving it to people who do eat it. Or water, either, especially if they're going to die without it. But taking hard goods, or drugs and booze, yeah shoot 'em.
MA

Figure a lot of the druggies have been without their supplies for a few days. Some have been caught looting clinics and one hospital.

Wade, it's good to hear that you're in one piece, more or less!

tubaman5150 · Post by **tubaman5150** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:21 am

Being a native of Louisiana, I have a unique perspective on New Orleans.
There two types of people who stayed in New Orleans via the Superdome:
1. Those who couldn't leave because of poverty or sickness. This is main bulk of people left behind. These people are in my thoughts and prayers.
2. Those who would not leave. Some were just stubborn, but many more "opportunistic" folks stayed for the looting. New Orleans is no stranger to hurricane warnings and those people always come out of the woodwork.

What I'm wondering is.....
What do the looters plan on doing with their goods in whats left of a completely flooded and ruined city? They certainly can't enjoy their alcohol and cigs at home can they? What use are electronics in a town that won't have power in the forseeable future?

Anyway, I'm in North LA now and refugees have flooded into the top half of the state. Every cellphone tower is flooded and long distance calls are near impossible. This has crippled commmunication of many emergency services. My parents live close to the MS border and all the local gas stations have been drained by folks from MS stockpiling for what they think is the Apocalypse. Local MS govt has reserved local gas stations for generators, but the SUV soccer moms have attacked East LA. My best friends parents live in New Orleans and their house is under water. They can't go home again.
Its a bad situation all around.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:56 am

I said last night that I wasn't ready to just start shooting people in the street for looting.

I'm ready now.

When the police have to turn their attention from search and rescue to maintaining order, the looters and other thug vermin are costing lives. Time to lock and load, as far as I'm concerned.
__________________________________
Joe Baker, who admits to having been insufficiently informed before.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:12 am

Joe Baker wrote:I said last night that I wasn't ready to just start shooting people in the street for looting.

I'm ready now.

I suspected you'd come around soon.

Joe Baker, who admits to having been insufficiently informed before.

Knowledge is power

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:14 am

cyras21 wrote:No offence, but enough with the National Guard BS. Send in the MARINES!!! Hell, I'll re-enlist.

Forget the enlisting. Swing by my place and I'll come too.

I've still got a few sets of utilities and my boots...

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:06 am

If we were talking about a few VCRs and Nike tennis shoes, I'd agree with you; but it's gone way beyond that. The lawlessness has escalated to the point that limited search and rescue resources are having to be redirected to restoring law and order instead of saving innocent victims. If you find it offensive that I'd rather a handful of lawless thugs be shot dead than for scores of innocent people to die of thirst or starvation in the middle of a sea of waste, then I don't know what to tell you.

And yes, I'm fully aware that there is the possibility of abuse of this sort of policy; but we're not choosing the "good" option here, only the least horrific one. In my opinion, we've reached the point that shooting the most lawless in order to establish some sense of law is better than allowing them to go around shooting others, or expending vast manpower holding them in check.
___________________________
Joe Baker, who is offended by everything about the situation in New Orleans.

EDIT: Henry, perhaps you should also consider that to you this is all very far away and in some sense "unreal". To those of us who live in this part of the world, this is a very real life-and-death struggle. Lives are on the line, and to a large degree decisions have to be made, and made quickly, about who will be saved. Try to imagine a town near you, where you have friends living, in this situation: people without food or water, cut off from supply, in the 90-100 degree attics of houses filled with sewage, dead bodies floating by in the water, and the authorities unable to get to everyone before they die. How would YOU feel about "swinish" (you really can't imagine how that trivializes this to our ears) behavior of people who become so lawless that rescue workers are diverted from rescue work to restoring order? Slip on the shoes of people in this part of the country for a while and walk around in them before you accuse us of being "offensive" or "talking trash". This isn't some macho trip, or bravado on our part; it's an absolute matter of life and death for a lot of people.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:19 am

Hey, I'm a flaming liberal, but I'm way past ready to condone shooting... plus, it was nice of all those TV folks to point out what this was going to do to our nation's <your topic here> supplieS. If I were a terrorist, I know where I'd be headed...

(Personally, though, I can't make it out of the yard without falling down, so you're all safe

)

Daryl Fletcher · Post by **Daryl Fletcher** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:20 am

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:28 am

I think there will be a lot of fallout over the lack of preparation for this. When 20% of the population is left behind to either die (in the case of the elderly and infirm) or wreak mayhem (in the case of looters) or to serve as victims (the "let's tough it out" people), the situation deserves a hard look.

I'm more than a little disappointed in the lack of national leadership in all of this. And last night, what I saw of the Louisiana governor seemed to be mostly excuses.

We don't need speeches right now.

Predictably, this is exactly what you'd get when the head of FEMA is a lawyer whose only experience is with estate planning and a as a suit for the International Arabian Horse Association:

http://pview.findlaw.com/view/2507976_1

Good Lord, what were people thinking?

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:32 pm

Henry wrote:Probably just talking trash about some undebatably swinish behaviour. The notion that we would start shooting citizens on sight, "shoot 'em down, sort 'em out on the ground" and completely ditch any trappings of law in reponse to the actions of several hundred jerks is unbelievably offensive. More so than the looters.

More offensive than rescue helicopters that can't land because they are being shot at by gangs of looters on the ground (two cases, one at the Superdome and one at a hospital in suburban Kenner)? More offensive than policemen who are trapped like everyone else on the roof of a hotel being shot at by a passing band of armed thugs? More offensive than able-bodied thugs hijacking a bus filled with sick and injured, forcing them out, and stealing the bus? More offensive than shooting a copy trying to stop a guy from stealing a plasma TV?

Were I the mayor of New Orleans, I would work with the state and the feds to announce an immediate moratorium on carrying weapons away from one's property. Anybody carrying a weapon would be arrested, and if they resisted, shot. Same for anyone demonstrating violence.

Rick "who thinks no amount of confusion or desperation is an excuse for using weapons to steal" Denney

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:45 pm

Rick Denney wrote:
Henry wrote:Probably just talking trash about some undebatably swinish behaviour. The notion that we would start shooting citizens on sight, "shoot 'em down, sort 'em out on the ground" and completely ditch any trappings of law in reponse to the actions of several hundred jerks is unbelievably offensive. More so than the looters.
More offensive than rescue helicopters that can't land because they are being shot at by gangs of looters on the ground (two cases, one at the Superdome and one at a hospital in suburban Kenner)? More offensive than policemen who are trapped like everyone else on the roof of a hotel being shot at by a passing band of armed thugs? More offensive than able-bodied thugs hijacking a bus filled with sick and injured, forcing them out, and stealing the bus? More offensive than shooting a copy trying to stop a guy from stealing a plasma TV?

Were I the mayor of New Orleans, I would work with the state and the feds to announce an immediate moratorium on carrying weapons away from one's property. Anybody carrying a weapon would be arrested, and if they resisted, shot. Same for anyone demonstrating violence.

Rick "who thinks no amount of confusion or desperation is an excuse for using weapons to steal" Denney

Although I am a libertarian on most issues, I agree. There comes a point when the only way to establish order, and in particular to save those who's lives are still at risk, is to make an example of those thugs who are taking advantage of the situation. People shooting at rescue helicopters, or hijacking senior citizen buses, or worse hijacking supply trucks trying to get to a hospital, get no sympathy from me. There are still people trapped in or on houses or in worse places without food or water and for whom time is of the essence. We can't let lawless thugs with no regard for others' property or lives get in the way.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:49 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:I think there will be a lot of fallout over the lack of preparation for this. When 20% of the population is left behind to either die (in the case of the elderly and infirm) or wreak mayhem (in the case of looters) or to serve as victims (the "let's tough it out" people), the situation deserves a hard look.

I'm trying to think of what it would take to get those 100,000 people to leave before the storm hit. How many buses would that require (assuming they don't have cars)? How long would it take to gather all those buses (and their drivers)? What force would be required to get people onto those buses who didn't want to go? How would you notify all 100,000, many of whom are apparently just not listening? Where would they be taken? What would be the fallout if they did all that and then the storm turned sharply right and missed the city altogether, only to lay Mobile or Pensacola waste, where such precautions weren't taken because all the resources were used up in New Orleans?

I don't see any credible way to plan for this, and particularly because the people for whom the plan is created have no interest in carrying it out. Sometimes you just have to leave people to their fate.

Of course, that doesn't apply to the infirm and those in hospitals, etc. But that's why those should get first priority in rescue services.

Some natural disasters just can't be planned for without an unacceptably large and expensive response infrastructure. What happens if Mount Rainier erupts, or worse, explodes? What happens if a major fault lets go in California for The Big One? What happens if the New Madrid fault along the Mississippi lets go for an even bigger one? Even if you knew when it would occur with two days warning, two days just ain't enough. Remember that, like Camille, Katrina strengthened explosively on Saturday, and made landfall on Monday morning. On Friday, it was just another hurricane, like the dozen or so that potentially threaten the people on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts every year.

When I was in the public sector, I carried an EOC pass and had disaster responsibilities. I listened to many a lecture by a FEMA moron talking about silliness. But, no amount of intelligence could plan for something like this effectively--there was too much uncertainty and too little time once the big questions were answered.

A big step forward would be for the people to work with their rescuers, as most are, rather than against them. It would also help if they made at least a few preparations in response to the warnings that came their way on Sunday, such as storing water and food where they could be reached in high water and so on. I do that routinely where I live when a big snowstorm is coming.

Rick "who thinks it takes two days for a command from the director to reach the people on the ground, even when given priority, and not being a lawyer wouldn't make that go faster" Denney