Fischoff & Concert Artists Guild

[Mike Forbes]

Take a look at the Fischoff competition and NYC's Concert Artist Guild chamber music competition:

http://www.fischoff.org/

http://www.concertartists.org/default.asp

While my quartet, Sotto Voce, did well at these, we never made it to finals...never has a tuba/euph. quartet made it that far! I hope someday it will happen!

But, perhaps it will happen by a euphonium quartet first, thus FORCING ITEC to recognize that ensemble as legit. Then again, they may recognize it already, but feel there are not enough schools that could put forth a euph. quartet to be competitive with North Texas....HA!

Good luck to all...and the ITEC quartet competition rep. list should be posted soon (perhaps next Journal!). (Ken F...I think you'll be very happy with some final round decisions on repertoire selections.)

Regards,
Mike

[Mike Forbes]

Sorry...this was supposed to be a reply under the thread "Tuba Quartet and Chamber Competitions" above.

Mike

[james]

how about.......a tuba 4tet with 4 tubas? Mike makes a great point that it seems like music selected for ITEC always lays best for 2 tubas-2 euphs but never any alternative such as 3 euphs-1 tuba, 4 tubas, 4 euphs, or 3tubas-1euph. I mean, let's just make it fair all around. Especially since some conservatories/private schools with some really good tuba players sometimes don't carry enough (or any) regular euph players. Same spectrum for the 4 euph idea. I doubt there are 20+ tuba players at UNT to balance a euph studio of 20+. (tubas from UNT, I mean that from a strict numbers point and not a lack of or lesser talent). Maybe I'm wrong and there are 20+ tubas at UNT.

[Mike Forbes]

James,

The ITEC-Quartet Competition is usually geared for either 4-tuba quartets or 2 euph/2 tuba quartets...the rep. this year I think fits that billing as well...but you still need to have a hot-dog on the 1st part. In Budapest, a quartet of 4 tubas (from Hungary) did indeed win the thing, beating euph-tuba quartets.

The other thread had a note from Crappy Euph wishing that ITEC included a 4-euph. thing like they normally do for a possible 4-tuba thing. The rep. for the ITEC quartet competition rarely, if ever, is playable (competitively) by a euph. quartet, because the bottom part simply can't speak all that well so balance is a neverending problem...this from a guy who plays the bottom euph. part when Sotto Voce plays euphonium quartets. I like to honk it out down there...but it still doesn't have the presense of even the smallest F-tuba.

There is something to be said about marketability here as well. A 4-tuba quartet (much like a euph. quartet) grows weary on the ear after a while. I find that the euph-tuba quartet makes the most competition sense from a color/timbre standpoint. When competing at Fischoff against woodwind quintets, brass quintets, sax quartets, etc., you need timbral color to match/compete with the others. Trombone quartets work well, because the player can very easily change his/her sound to fit the accent, dynamic, range, intensity, etc...tuba/euph. quartets don't do that as well due to the homogenuity of sound. 4-tuba quartets can do it even less...and the euph. quartet probably has the smallest timbral range. In Sotto Voce, we like to switch up who's playing what as much as possible to keep the beautiful, warm, and admitedly sometimes dull, sounds always exciting and interesting to the most lay-audience member. Something to consider. Even the Melton quartet made up of 4-tuba players in true European fashion, sport a euph. on the top part of ease of playing, but mostly clarity of sound.

Mike

[TonyTuba]

Mike makes some very good points about this.

Having three divisions (euph quartet, tuba quartet, mixed quartet) is possibly a direction to go. Maybe if ITEC/ITEA created a platform for these types of ensembles to perform, we will start to see more of them. These competitions are largely educational and collegiate anyways. What harm can it do?

[james]

If the 4tet rep in Hungary was similar to the 4tet rep in Greensboro, I would like to hear that 1st tuba player who played in the winning group (Especially on Consequences!!). It would be hard to suggest that ITEC 4tet rep is geared towards a possible 4 tuba 4tet with several of Mike's arrangements showing up on the list. He writes for Demondre for Pete's sake! The euph parts are technical and high enough enough on euphonium. College groups are the majority if not all of the entires for ITEC 4tet's in the US. I would think you would have to keep the range in general no higher than a G above Bass clef (with occasional higher) for a 4 tuba 4tet sake and then it would make parts relatively boring for a 2 euph 2 tuba group. I think the argument Mike makes for 4 euphs can be applied to a 4 tuba 4tet. You need an absolute stud on either the top(4 tuba) or the bottom(4 euph) in these ITEC competitions.

james-"who's for being fair and having both 4-tuba 4tets/ 4-euph 4tets or neither as long as he doesn't have to listen and judge"

[Gorilla Tuba]

Thanks Mike! tHAT'S EXACTLY WHAT i AM LOOKING FOR. Oops, caps lock.
____________________________________________
About Euph quartets:

I recently did a recording of myself playing all the parts to a simple chorale-style quartet arrangement of "America" using a variety instruments just to see what combination of voices worked best (to my ear). My unscientific results were as follows:

Parts 1 and 2 on F Tuba, 3 and 4 on a Big CC tuba - VERY dark and ponderous.... tubby.

Parts 1 and 2 on Euph, 3 on F tuba, 4 on a big CC - much better clarity to the lines. - for a lot of literature I really like the idea of this instrumentation, but listening objectively, there was more blending (and less clarity) than I expected.

Parts 1, 2, and 3 on Euph, Part 4 on F tuba - much cleaner still, but seemed to be missing something from the bottom end.

All Euphs - really clean and the dissonances worked well. Although a valid ensemble, I would like a true bass voice.

My preference for this arrangement was 3 euphs and a smaller CC tuba (Cerveny Piggy). It had the really bass voice, but didn't have such a wide sound as my PT6.

Again my "findings" were highly unscientific and based 100% on my personal bias for clarity and balance of sound.

Implications: The traditional 2 tubas/ 2 euph quartet certainly has its place. At most schools it is possible to put together this type of ensemble and have some success, but it is completely valid to question why. It is often difficult to get a 1st tuba player who has a nice enough high range to sound "pretty." Therefor, I think 3 euphs and 1 tuba may be a great choice for many high school and college level ensembles. Hopefully such instrumentation would not be viewed by ITEA or other organizations as "non-standard."

As for competitions that use a standard "test piece," such as ITEC, It seems that a somewhat standardized instrumentation would be a necessity. However, I don't think it would be asking too much to either add an all euphonium category or allow reorchestrations.

I am starting to see that the euphonium community is starting to seek sovereignty from the tuba world. I sincerely hope that as new literature is written and the instrument's renaissance comes to fruition that we can still claim that we are one family.

How was that for a lot of words that said so little.

[Mike Forbes]

Great comments through and through. As for rep. in Hungary, James, the final pieces were originals...one "out" piece by a hungarian composer that called for notes well above the bass clef staff (a D, above High C, I think), and my Four Miniatures (available: Editions BIM) which though tougher than Consequences in terms of ensemble, the range is actually less of a problem (esp. the first 2 mvt.'s which they had to play). The 4-tuba groups (esp. from Hungary) all had a hot-dog on the 1st tuba part that could easily sing up to the high C without any problems. Most of those groups use either all 4 F tubas or 2 F's and 2 CC's (the F's use itty-bitty mouthpieces, I'm sure). I was actually commissioned to do the "Four Miniatures" by Roland and Janos for the Hungarian ITEC--at the time, however, they didn't stress to me the need to write a piece that would work for both 4-tuba and euph/tuba quartets...so I did write the work mainly with euph.'s and tubas in mind. And I agree, that lower stuff for 4 tubas doesn't always translate well to the euph. world (John Stevens' Music 4 Tubas, Moondance, etc.).

I think if ITEC did separate all these categories, I think we'd have a lot of winners, but not a whole lot of competitors. This upcoming ITEC (of which I'm the head-quartet judge) has a rep. list with many options and choices. The thought is to give quartets a chance to pick the rep. that best suits their individual tastes and forte's. Generally the selections are all similar in a given category: a lyrical piece, and fugue, etc., but options within that category.

But the best thing is, the finals is going to be a "pick your own original piece" in addition to some other selections. (That was the surprise, Ken F...who suggested this idea to me long ago). This freedom will really showcase the chamber ensemble's vibe. Also, I think that gives us (the judges) to ability to really rate who's making the best "chamber music" regardless of their instrumentation. And I would suggest that this might be the ultimate goal in years to come....more or less a "chamber music free-for-all" with the judges not really being able to compare apples to apples, but rather ripe oranges against bruised pears. Know what I mean?

Mike

[james]

Mike,
I think that is an EXCELLENT idea for the future and it was kind of the point in my first post. Not that ITEC have three or four seperate 4tet competitions but rather have either a selection list (with "user-friendly" piece options for each round) or a free-for-all with certain guidelines. In a free-for-all, many things would work very well. Groups could be required to showcase certain styles per round i.e. fugue, romantic lieder, jazz, rock, etc. This would encourage the members to arrange for the specific group, as Sotte Vocce is so famous for, and possibly expand the rep for future. Maybe it would be appropriate for now to have a selection list that includes "do-able" pieces for every group on each round. It's good to hear such innovative thoughts coming from competition heads. Thanks Mike!
-James

[CrappyEuph]

So I am to understand that for the ITEC competition, there's a list of rep for each round, so the groups have a little bit more freedom?

Why is it not possible, then, to add a piece to the list for each round that would work for an all-euph group?

- Crappy

[Jobey Wilson]

Oh, Lordy....
I recall one Octubafest which, according to the program, included a performance of an ensemble comprised of:
bass tuba, slide-tenor tuba, alto tuba, & 2 soprano tubas... I don't think we should get too carried away! (though, it wouldn't quite be right if we didn't!)...jobey

[Kevin Miller]

Good one Jobey. At least that "tuba"ensemble has a chance to perform and make a few bucks in the real world.

I could agree with a contest that included non standard combinations of tuba type instruments. The caveat is that the winning group be determined by great musical performance (of course), accessible literature (accessible to a ticket buying, non-musician audience), showmanship, and audience appeal.

There are already enough contests that exist within the vacuum of acadamia. Why not encourage a competition that promotes creative and entertaining performances that will draw the interest of our two most important audiences: impressionable young children, and ticket buying adults. I know it sounds crazy, but it's worth a thought.

[Mark]

Most of those groups use either all 4 F tubas or 2 F's and 2 CC's (the F's use itty-bitty mouthpieces, I'm sure).

Which mouthpieces would would you consider itty-bitty?

[Mike Forbes]

Mark,

I'm not exactly sure what they were using...one of them looked like the Roger Bobo solo mouthpiece...but another one that I looked at had no marking on it and looked to me to be like a bass trombone mouthpiece with a tuba shank.

As for CRAPPIE (Jamie)...yeah, I could have included some euph-friendly rep in the selection portion, but each round also has a "standard" piece that ALL groups must play--the members of my jury (to include some well-known euphoniumists) wanted still some consistency in the competition so that we could still judge apples to apples in terms of rep.

My idea that I put forth earlier in this thread will take time...maybe it will be implimented in 10 years or so. In the mean time...what does Wolkenschatten (by Koetsier (prelims)) sound like with 4 euphs? Why not give it a try? My Tuba/Euph. Ensemble is doing Neal Corwell's "In the Cathedral" with Neal in October...though this piece is written for 4 euph.'s it goes to the ledger line F regularly...that's far lower than the Koetsier. Give it a whirl!

Mike

[CrappyEuph]

We'll check it out -

How low does the lowest part go in the Koetsier?