Instruments from India/China

[quinterbourne]

Recently, I have been very much against the instruments coming out of India and/or China. I'm talking about the cheap ones that you could find thousands of on ebay. These are, in no doubt, cheaply made "barely playable" instruments that work better as lamps than as a musical instrument.

So, I was wondering what you guys think their IMPACT is on the musical world in general. I have two schools of thought going here:

a) Since they are so inexpensive, more people learn to play musical instruments. These people eventually upgrade to higher quality instruments (made in Europe/USA). This theory would result in a positive effect on the number (and possibly quality) of musicians out there. This would also, in theory, be beneficial to the higher quality instrument companies that would have more people buying instruments from them (when they upgrade away from the crappy India/China horn). Most people learn how to drive a Ford Taurus before they purchase a Rolls-Royce.

b) People learning on the crappy India/China instrument are turned off by the instrument. The instrument makes learning more difficult, so the individual is more likely to quit completely than to purchase a higher quality instrument. This would result in lower numbers of people actually attempting to become proficient on a musical instrument, and thus the instrument companies would suffer.

Now, I would imagine that these two "scenarios" probably happen, not trying to say that only one is possible. I am sure that some people progress because of them, while other don't. What I am interested in is the overall impact. Does the musical world suffer or become improved by the existence of instruments from India/China? Are (or will) high quality instrument companies from Europe/USA lose or gain from these Indian/Chinese instruments? Should we, as serious musicians, support or condemn these cheap instruments?

Corey

[Dan Schultz]

I view the introduction of the cheap import horns as being the same as my thoughts when all the junk Japanese cars hit the US markets in the 60's. At first, I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole because most of them were junk. Now... I can see that the competition was very healthy inasmuch as the junk forced the REAL manufacturers to straighten up and pay attention to quality and price. A little competition never hurts. The difference between autos of the 60's and the autos of today (both foreign AND domestic) is like night and day. Let's hope the foreign competition does the same for the tuba industry. There's no reason a quality tuba should cost $10,000!

[JayW]

I find Blokes comments very very interesting....
Now I will offer my .02 from my teaching experiences:

I do not find these instruments helpful or beneficial from a teachers point of view, because: Their extremely low price point encourages (excuse the term) uninformed parents to purchase these instruments for their children instead of buying/renting more reputible brands. I had within my first year of teching several students who came into school with these instruments (flute, trumpet and clarinet) only to have great dificulty getting the instruments to work properly. The precision or lack there of that these are made with really made the experience a negative for the students. I had to actually call one parent and explain to them what they had and why it was not working for their daughter. After that she came in with a new "popular brand" horn and instantly had a more positive experience in class.

I see Dan's point as well, comparing them to Japanese cars except that i will say that while Toyota was very quickly know for making a car that could go 100,000 miles or more without much trouble, I do not see these chinese instruments as offering that type of reliability. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Chuck(G)]

This thread has popped up at a good time. A local,family owned music store has just closed it's doors for good thanks to those low quality,cheap horns.They simply couldn't compete. From what I see as a bandroom volunteer and private tutor,quite a lot of classroom time has been taken up trying to fix sticky valves and keyes on some of these instruments.This is only an issue in fifth grade, first year band/orchestra classes.We wind up loosing a few kids due to the loss of their instruments.This year, students and parents were given a list of acceptable instruments.It was a long list,giving them plenty of options.So far tere have been no problems.

You oversimplify the store-closing situation--their competition across town is doing great and even expanding. The owner of the store inherited the business from his father and made a couple of hugely wrong (I and others warned him) business decisions, including relocating to a lower-traffic site in favor of more space (the two old stores were still owned by family members) and a whopper of a loan. Quite honestly, I don't think that Jonathan had his heart in the business and he's very happy teaching full-time again.

Willy, on the other hand, knows his business and clientele. He carries some Chinese strings, but generally sticks with good quality winds; he's just added another tech and will probably be around for many more years.

Bottom line is that when you're in business for yourself, mistakes can be fatal.

[Dan Schultz]

I see Dan's point as well, comparing them to Japanese cars except that i will say that while Toyota was very quickly know for making a car that could go 100,000 miles or more without much trouble, I do not see these chinese instruments as offering that type of reliability. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

The very first imports to hit the US market did well to go 40,000 miles... including the POS Honda Civics and Datsuns. This was all going on at about the same time as a GM camshaft only lasted 34-40,000 miles.
Today, about any automobile will go 100,000 without even changing the spark plugs! The features on today's automobiles couple with the dramatically increased reliability.... I hope spill over into the musical instrument market. The foreign manufacturers will do the same thing as they did with the autos... they'll keep pecking away at the quality and performance issues until they surpass the quality of what we now consider 'the best'. Yamaha is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Their horns were 'questionable' when they first hit our shores.

I still contend that there is absolutely NO reason a descent tubas should cost $8-10,000!

[MikeMason]

one thing being left out of this discussion is what happened to the price of all these foreign products when the quality rose.it exploded. this is why there are very few deals in the world. if an item is worth a certain amount,if will eventually cost that amount or more...

[Anterux]

Instruments from India and China are not all alike in terms of quality.

And if the quality of some of those "brands" will improve as it has improved until today, in a short future they will be great instruments at a great price.


I also know some instruments from India that are very cheap and very bad. And I dont think they are making any effort to improve.

But others are.

Just my 2 cents.

Antero

[tubarepair]

Why do band directors spend valuable teaching time trying to get these junk instruments to work? Math teachers don't repair broken calculators. If a kid shows up to Trig class with a calculator that can't perform the necessary functions - out he goes. The band directors are the folks who are going to have to take a stand on the influx of junk instruments. You can't blame Off The Wal-Mart (my obligatory Michael Jackson reference) for turning a buck. Costco is selling Yamaha this year, with the assistance of local Yamaha dealers. The jury is still out on this endeavor.

Most of us will concede that Yamaha is making quality products. How many of you remember the junk horns they were distributing c.1968? The market demanded better and they did it. Now they are #1. Jupiter of the early 80's went through the same process. Now they are making decent horns and have by far the best customer service department out there. They are #2 in sales.

Band directors need to take a stand. If a kid walks into beginning band with a metal clarinet, they get sent out (Although today, many of the metal clarinets play better than some of their imported plastic counterparts). Rather than wasting the entire classes time trying get some crappy valves to work or staightening a key made of butter, use that time after class to call the parents and discuss the situation.

Yes, I feel badly for the parents who make an uninformed decision on what quality of instrument to purchase for their kids, but we have to make it clear that a junk horn simply won't suffice for participation in band class (which of course, is not a required course).

And please don't throw economics into the argument. I have a "fine" Indian trumpet at the college that was donated by a Microsoft Exec (read: seven figure salary here) that he purchased off eBay ($69.99) for his son. The band director refused to let the kid play it in band class, so he called me for advice. One of my students happend to have a 60's Conn Director that he had restored and sold it to the guy for $200.00. People - of all economic backgrounds - need to be educated. If $200 is too much to spend for a decent instrument for your kid, then you might consider not buying that second pair of $200 Air Jordan sneakers that match the pair he has on his feet now.

My .0236422 CAD worth. DLH

[Dan Schultz]

one thing being left out of this discussion is what happened to the price of all these foreign products when the quality rose.it exploded. this is why there are very few deals in the world. if an item is worth a certain amount,if will eventually cost that amount or more...

There is no such thing as a 'deal'.... only compromises. The consumer is the one who draws the line between cost and quality. You get EXACTLY what you pay for.

[ai698]

One thing hasn't been brought up- They will bring you happy!!

[SplatterTone]

My experience with Chinese horns (pocket trumpet, trumpet, alto horn, oval euphonium, and two tubas -- Bandfolio and Allora 186) is that the necessary pragmatic elements are all there: Intonation, response, and mechanical functioning. But one gives up some elegance in workmanship.

The brass or nickel plating is not as well buffed; the lacquer application can be anywhere from marginal to acceptable; valve linkage might be a little clickety; the slides do slide but they don't glide. I should say that the Allora (assuming it is Chinese) is certainly better than the rest, and the valve linkage is quiet. I've had no mechanical problems (i.e. valves or slides) with any of them.

The smaller horns were gotten to satisfy my curiosity; the bigger ones because I'm cheap.

The oval euphonium just got put to a practical use when my son started 6th grade band. Let's see ... do I send him to school with the VMI 3171? Nooooo, I don't think so. The oval job has good intonation, response is good, and it's an easy to play horn. The horn and its molded plastic case are light in weight which is something very much appreciated by a kid who has to lug around a backpack full of books. It's shiny. It's easy to hold. He's the only one who has one. Throw in a spiffy red Kelly 12C and we're talking way cool now. I was a little hesitant, but I offered to let him take the Amati, and he declined. The tone is thin, but given the horrendous sound of beginning 6th grade band, who cares?

I was curious about those GENUINE HAYDN (ta-da!!) tubas, so I sent e-mails to four people who had bought one. Two of them replied. They play them in ensembles. While they didn't heap on the praise, they had no complaints either and essentially said it met the pragmatic requirements of a decent tuba for a price they could afford.

I also have a piccolo trumpet and euphonium from India (curiosity again). I will agree that the quality here would likely disappoint even the most consumate of pragmatists.

[SplatterTone]

Indeed I do read the feedback, send e-mails to previous buyers and sometimes to the seller. That might be why I've done reasonably OK bottom fishing for those bargain instruments.