Technology Questions

[David Zerkel]

I have been informed that there is some tech money to be spent in the School of Music at UGA, and I am finally ready to (gulp) embrace technology and join the 21st century (already in progress).

My main goal is to be abe to record my student's lessons and be able to deliver a file or a hard copy of each lesson to my students. I am a dork, so I would like this to be as simple as possible. I would also like to be able to record my students for audition tapes.

This is what my wish list looks like... I am throwing any budgetary concerns to the wind and asking for a lot.

1. Edirol R-1 Portable 24-Bit WAVE Recorder & Player
2. SmartMusic for Mac OSX
3. A very good set of external speakers for my Mac G5

Here are my questions (remember, I know NOTHING!):

1. Is this a good set-up.?
2. Is it overkill to ask for SmartMusic and the Edirol R-1?
3. What would you recommend for speakers?
4. Do any of you have experience with SmartMusic? Do you dig it?
5. If money were not an object, what technology would you use in your studio to enhance the applied music experince?

Any input is welcome. Feel free to contact me either on-list or off.

Thanks!
DZ

[Mark]

It is a little more money, but you might be happier with this recorder: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=r ... id/240492/. It is larger than the Edirol, but you can burn a CD (even on location) without using your computer at all. The Tascam, unlike the Edirol, will also use XLR mics and supplies phantom power. The Edirol, unlike many "pocket" portables will record as 24-bit WAV; but when it does the recording time is cut considerably. The Tascam's 40 GB hard drive will hold a lot more. I have no experience with the Edirol's internal mics; but I'd bet you would not be satisfied with them. Tascam also makes a similar recorder without the CD burner for about the same price as the Edirol.

As for speakers, these are some of the best I've heard: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=r ... id/605250/. They are pricey, but you do get what you pay for...


Note: I pulled the pages from Musician's Friend just because it was convenient. I don't know how their prices compare to other retailers on these items.

[james]

Dave,
try a portable CD recorder such as the link above which would cost around $500 if you search around. These are smaller in size than an XBox and you just slap a CD-R in and hit record. You can adjust levels and mix right on the box so essestially it is a cd recorder/mixer in one. Most have a mic input as well as an internal microphone(which would be more handy for lessons). DOUBLE CHECK for a mic input. You could then have students bring you a spindle of 25-30 blank cds at the beginning of the year(which would cost them a mere $5-10) and they could take the cd with them after lessons. These recordings could also be put on the computer by students and transfered to the IPod. For microphones, check of the Audio Technica AT-822. Seems to be a quality mic for recording tuba. This whole set up should stay under $1,000 and would be very "handy" and "telling" for the students. Of course there are better ways but this would be VERY user friendly. I hate having to set up recording equipment for lessons and this seems to be a much easier alternative. As easy as a minidisc but more "transferrable".

[SplatterTone]

I looked at the Edirol R1 and wanted to get one real bad ... real bad; the thing is so handy -- a pocket sized, battery powered, stereo recorder you can whip out and start using in a few seconds. But I ended up not getting it because of some nagging doubts about the low end response of the built-in mics, and there are no phantom-powered XLR inputs on it to permit using premium mics without the need for an external pre-amplifier or mixer. I do NOT know for a fact that there is any limitation with the built-in mics, but I've messed around with mics enough to know that it takes a pretty good mic to properly record a tuba.

This guy has some sound samples and a comparison of the built-in mics versus using an outboard mixer:
http://www.pgoelz.com/edirol_r1_main.html

If capturing every nuance, especially the low fundamental, of the tone is not an absolute requirement, and the main point to is record the performance, the R1 seems like it would be a good choice. Recently, there have appeared competitors to the R1, but I don't know much about them.

[Gorilla Tuba]

I use Smart music alot. The amount of accompaniments for tuba/ euph literature is not so good. But I use it to record lessons all the time. Specifically when dealing with tone or clarity issues. I use a PC so I just use the soundcard and the enclosed mic.

Another tool I use is a Supersonic CD burner. It is cool becuase it has higher quality mics, you can dupe CDs on it, and you can play CDs at various speeds without changing the pitch. This cost around $1000.

In short, Smartmusic is great for getting immediate feedback. It is limited by the recording quality. The Supersonic is a much better recorder, but doesn't have built in tuners, scale exersises and other practice aids. I find them both to be valuable.

[Pete Link]

Check this one out. I use it and it works great. Very user friendly.

http://www.electronicscity.com/product_ ... _id=13[url][/url][/url]

[Ryan_Beucke]

I'm not the most technologically savvy, but I feel like you could do more with what you have. If you bought your Mac recently, you should have garageband, which is a good basic recording program. then you cound add a recording interface and mic and record straight on to your comp, and then easily send those files to your students. Once again, I'm not very savvy with this stuff, so I may be wrong.

[SplatterTone]

I got around to making a demo MP3 using the Fostex MR8HD (HD = hard drive) using pair of Audio Technica AT3035 mics. The WAV file from the Fostex was edited and MP3-ified using Audacity. I think there was a small amount of loss in the conversion, but not too much. The tuba is an Allora 186 powered by a Faxx 24AW. Before listening, you need to adjust your expectations to the fact that I am not a tubist -- just a guy who happens to own a tuba (CHINESE tuba!). Please keep that in mind and try to imagine how it would sound with a genuine tubist at the controls. The demo is approx. 1.3 MB short string of more or less random notes.

http://t-recs.net/mpegs/allora186_demo01.mp3

The mics were about 20 feet from the tuba, and the recording location is the sanctuary of this joint:
http://flctulsa.org

Dare we request a sub-forum for shameless amateurs to post samples of their bad playing?

[Dylan King]

Why buy any kind of recording devise when you have a MAC? One can do so much more recording directly into the computer. Get a good audio interface for your MAC, preferably firewire, and you can record directly into whatever audio program you are using on the MAC. You will be able to have multiple recording setups, and as many microphones as your interface will allow. I use the Tascam FW 1884, which is fantastic, but they also offer smaller, less expensive alternatives.

Those rack mount and portable audio recorders get the job done, but one has to learn the interface, which is usually a small screen. Then you would have to transfer the audio to the computer. Why not save the money on a machine like that and go directly into the computer. Your MAC will have more power, be easier to use, and can work on any computer. If you have a laptop, you can take it along and record anywhere. And the computer will make it so much easier to burn files for the students.

With the technology available today, every music school program should have a small recording studio. One could easily build one into a band room with all new equipment, ready to go for under $10,000. Less than the cost of some tubas.

Of course I only recommend this to private schools. I wouldn't want anyone to have to pay for a recording studio for the kids in his neighborhood at gunpoint.

Wait. That's the way it is already. Never mind.

[Dylan King]

I got a little carried away there. If it is just a home setup, you can do it for very little money. Tascam has some audio interfaces that are USB, you don't really NEED firewire, for under $200. Plug in a decent mic, and you're good to go.

[dtemp]

Why buy any kind of recording devise when you have a MAC?

Agreed. All you need is a inexpensive audio interface and a decent mic. Heck, you could even use GarageBand, which is built right into iLife (if you have it). No need spending all that money if you have the bulk of your equipment in your office already.

Just one Mac geek's opinion...

[dtemp]

PS - I use these monitors ... http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=r ... id/603201/

I do a lot of recordings of tuba (mostly for my colleuges who actually have a chance of winning auditions) and they sound GREAT. Not to mention a great price for a pair of studio monitors. They are non-powered however, so an amp would e needed. I use an older Sony amp I got used for $50.

[greatk82]

I would contact the guys at www.sweetwater.com
They are amazing people who sell a wide variety of audio gear but focus mainly on protools. Let a salesperson know what you have and what you want, and they will take care of you. With a Mac in the office, I would record right on the hard drive with Garage Band or Protools. You can get an MBox for $500 or a Digi002 rack for around 1200 and either will work as an interface. I would look into a Sennheiser MD441 or Kickball mic. Just contact the folks at sweetwater. They are the best help.
tj

[greatk82]

Here would be my dream setup from sweetwater. Just a suggestion.
t



Furman PL-8 II
Surge Suppressor and Power Conditioner with 9 Outlets, 15-amp Capacity and Unique Line Filtering Technology for Low Noise
ItemID: PL8II Price: $129.97 $129.97

Shure KSM141/SL Stereo Pair
Switchable Omnidirectional Cardioid Condenser Microphone - Stereo Pair
ItemID: KSM141ST Price: $799.97 $799.97

Neumann Mic Stand Mount
Blk Stereo Mount/Sliding Mount
ItemID: DS120 Price: $199.97 $199.97

AKG KM 210/91
Mic Stand (Chrome)
ItemID: KM210/9CH Price: $89.97 $89.97

Monster Cable S100M15
15' Mic Cable - Standard 100
ItemID: S100M15 Price: $24.95 $99.80

Digidesign Digi 002 Rack Factory Bundle
FireWire Pro Tools LE System incl. analog 8 in/8 out with ADAT and S/PDIF I/O Audio Interface with 4 Mic PreAmps
ItemID: Digi002RFactory Price: $1,549.97 $1,549.97

Digidesign Command|8
Pro Tools TDM and LE Professional Control Surface w/8 Motorized Faders & Rotary Knobs & Transport Section
ItemID: Command8 Price: $1,149.97 $1,149.97

PreSonus BlueTube Dual Path
Two-Channel Mic/Instrument Preamplifier with Solid-State and Tube Technology
ItemID: BlueTubeDP Price: $199.97 $199.97

Gator GR-4L
4U Deluxe Rack
ItemID: GR4L Price: $99.99 $99.99

MAP Blank Rack Panels
1U Econo Blank
ItemID: EB1 Price: $6.49 $6.49

JBL LSR6328P Package
JBL Studio Monitoer (pair) with 8" Woofer, 1" Dome Tweeter; 250 WattsLF/120 Watts HF plus RMC Kit calibration Kit
ItemID: LSR6328PPak Price: $1,999.97 $1,999.97

Pro Co BP30
30' TRS - TRS Cable
ItemID: BP30 Price: $34.97 $139.88
Subtotal (before shipping & tax): $6,465.92

[SplatterTone]

One last post on this (maybe). I made two simultaneous recordings. One using the Audio Technica at3035 mics, and the other using CAD 94 mics -- a middle of the road, general purpose dynamic mic. This was done in a small, accoustically dead room; so I suspect a fair amount of the low fundamental got whacked by the dead room, and the demo won't show as much difference there as it might have in an accoustically good room.

The mics were sitting next to each other. Audacity was used to make the peak level of the two recordings equal; it was also used to convert the WAV files to MP3.

With all the things I'm doing wrong (and it ain't intentional ... I wish it were), you might ask: If this were my student, is the significantly higher cost of a good mic like the at3035 and the equipment required to use it truly necessary to make it clear to him what needs fixing. Another thing to consider is that if you want to e-mail the files is the size of the files. The MP3s below are about 1.3 MBytes for a short segment, but they have been encoded at the highest bit rate supported by the encoder in order to preserve sound fidelity.

AT3035: http://t-recs.net/mpegs/all186_at3035.mp3

CAD94: http://t-recs.net/mpegs/all186_cad94.mp3

[king2ba]

Wow.....you guys recomending all this technology really don't know Zerkel! I'm still impressed he knows that the CD drive tray ISN'T a cup holder!

[SplatterTone]

If it wasn't clear in the posts I made, what I was trying to say (probably not very well) was: Try to determine how good a sound quality is "good enough". The sound quality desired will determine the microphone quality required, which will determine the kind of equipment needed to use those microphones. That is, rather than start with the backend hardware, start with the microphones.

The original post said something about using floppy disks. With a capacity of only 1.44 megebytes, it will require that mp3 files be encoded at a less than optimal rate. So that might influence equipment selection. Do you need top of the line stuff if you plan on compressing the snot out of the final sound file? Sort of like: Would one buy a Mark Levinson amplifier to drive a pair of boombox speakers? (Although there might be somebody, someplace who is doing exactly that.)

You could try experimenting with a file, encoding it using lower and lower bit rates, then comparing the results. On my original sound sample where I was blasting away in the church sanctuary to throw up (appropriate term here) a big spectrum of sound, there was a significant loss of definition in the sound in going from the original WAV file to an mp3 at the highest bit rate supported by the encoder (Audacity uses the LAME encoder). However, with the files I made in my accoustically dead little room, I think there was no significant loss in the mp3 conversion.

For e-mailing mp3 files one must consider that it is common for e-mail filters to limit attachements to some maximum size or, in some cases, to block mp3 files completely. Another possibility would be to post the mp3 files on a website if there are no confidentiality or self-esteem issues.

Then there is the possibility that all this was a whole lot more info than the original post was looking for. In which case, you must bear in mind that there are folks who like gadgets; like playing with gadgets; like talking about gadgets. Gadgets R Us.

[tubajoe]

I’m with the camp that CD/hard disk recorders are pretty much old school and outdated – in fact I just got rid of a CD recorder that I had.

Recording directly into the computer via a good usb/firewire/ pre/input box (Mbox or the likes) with a couple of decent mikes is the way to go.

The great thing is that once in the computer (be it ProTools, Cubase or whatever) you have a complete VISUAL representation of the music – and it makes it easy and so quick to do what you need with it (even if you don’t have a lot of computer chops) Things like cutting and pasting etc are amazingly easy.

You can always dump from your other source into ProTools (as many studios do now: tape to ProTools) but just recording into the computer directly is probably the easiest way to go.

The guitar player in my band does this for EVERY lesson he teaches using Garageband. The kids love it – they leave the lesson with an actual CD in hand to play for mommy/friends of them playing. He does it all right from his laptop. And we all know the (often painful) benifits of recording ourselves.

Since you already have a snazzy G5 right there – I’d suggest getting a good preamp/box/mics and a nice set of studio monitor speakers and a copy of ProTools. That’d suit you well and would be cost effective. Many small studios I’ve been in nowdays don’t have (or need) much more than that.

As I am sure Mellosmokeman and others will attest to, getting some chops in editing software is an extremely valuable thing to have for ANY type music of application or vocation. For a musician having those skills are equitable in importance to using the web or email. It is literally that essential if you want to share/publicize/review/enjoy your own music – it’s an amazing tool – things have become SO much easier in that regard within the last few years. You can literally go from recording/editing/burning/even mp3 in minutes and in just a few steps and with only a computer.

[Mark]

I’m with the camp that CD/hard disk recorders are pretty much old school and outdated – in fact I just got rid of a CD recorder that I had.

Recording directly into the computer via a good usb/firewire/ pre/input box (Mbox or the likes) with a couple of decent mikes is the way to go.

Unless you have a good notebook computer, you will lose the portability of a HD/CD recorder. I know I wouldn't want to haul a G5 + monitor, etc. around just to do a quick recording.

My Tascam DP-01FX will fit in my Manhasset Voyager bag along with mics, headphones and cables.

[David Zerkel]

Wow.....you guys recomending all this technology really don't know Zerkel! I'm still impressed he knows that the CD drive tray ISN'T a cup holder!

Ah, finally someone who understands me! Thanks for painting everyone the propoer picture, Mike!

Hope all is well!