Mouthpieces -How to tell which one fits?

[SplatterTone]

I still do a lot of experimentation small to large and back to small. One of the things I try to do is keep an open mind and not get into this mentality of equating the size of the mouthpiece I use to some kind of comparison of male organ size and who has the biggest one.

Some of what determines is the "best" size is the playing situation. Most of the time for my playing situation, a sweet mellow sound is called for. But sometimes, a bigger sound is appropriate. My limitations as a player are such that I get best results if I use different mouthpieces for the different situations. In my case, I've settled on something in the 24AW, Yamaha 66D4 range for the sweet playing; and Kelly 18 for when some more honk is called for. To arrive at this, I've acquired the Yamaha 64, 65, 66D4, 67C4, 68B; Conn 120-S, 7B (The Hellebergs); Kelly 25, Kellyberg, 18; Faxx 25, Helleberg, 24AW; Bach 18; and a Yamaha 67 is on its way here.

If I have to play a lot of high stuff, I might wuss out and use the Yamaha 65 or a 25. Of course, calling it a "wuss out" gets back to the size comparison analogy.

Rather than saying this is "the one", I say this might be the one, favor it, but keep doing some experimenting with the others from time to time. I sort of got into the big mouthpiece-itis for a while, but noticed that I was developing some bad habits. I dropped back to the smaller mouthpieces at which point I was able to relax and get a better tone without sacrificing any of the low range. Even though I will use the Kelly 18 (on which I think I sound a little better than when I use the Bach 18) on occasion, I don't use it a lot bacause I start playing with too much tension if I use it too much.

For a while there, I was back and forth between the 24AW and the 66D4 for sweet playing. At this time, I'm favoring the 66D4. Think about it: a smaller diameter cup lets you relax a little, but it has a deep cup and a big throat. I have a smaller mouth and lips -- not tiny, but probably a little smaller than a lot of men. So that's going to be a factor.

After saying all that, I'll admin that a month from now, things might be completely different (just like the Monty Python intro).

[SplatterTone]

And I have no idea why typing Bach 18 in the previous post made a smiley face appear.

[windshieldbug]

And I have no idea why typing Bach 18 in the previous post made a smiley face appear.

That's because for the emoticon "cool" you type in '8)'. When the software sees this, it substitutes a smiley face with sunglasses. You wrote "Even though I will use the Kelly 18 (on which I think I sound a little better than when I use the Bach 18) on occasion", the software found 8), and you know the rest...

[Ryan_Beucke]

It's very much preference and a combination of the best qualities. Some pieces will be better for high range, some help your low range more, some promote a mellower sound while some can give you more edge, and some give you increased flexibility and articulation. You try a bunch, decide on one that is comfortable and has the best all around of these qualities. For example, if you find that with X big mouthpiece your low range is awesome but your high range sounds bad, but with Y smaller mouthpiece your high range sounds great and your low range is only slightly worse, all other things being equal, it might be better to stick with the smaller piece and work on your low range.

The only "X-Factor" that might not be outright apparent is if you keep on trying different mouthpieces yet always come back to a certain one, maybe you should stay on that one piece

[iiipopes]

1) How to tell if a mouthpiece fits your embouchure
In my opinion, the answers so far have missed the boat. Before you talk about tone, you have to talk about the rim interface (pun intended). The rim must fit the embouchure properly, in cup diameter, rim width and contour, or all else is naught. Once the rim is fitted properly, cup geometry can help with the rest of it. In changing from a BBb or CC to an F, I can understand that a narrower cup diameter may help, but try not to: work with a shallower or differently shaped cup first. How do you tell? Well, start with one in the middle of all this mess and see if you feel like you are always having to adjust something. If so, try a different mouthpiece changing one variable at at time, diameter, if possible. Once you hit upon a diameter that suits your mouth, you probably will feel less urge to keep adjusting and will have more endurance. Then you can experiment with rim contours, the three main ones being the sharp Helleburg style, the Bach 18-ish style and the wide 24AW style. The one that gives you the greatest flexibility without tiring your embouchure prematurely is the one to fit you. Then you go with throat variations until you find one that is large enough to get your dynamic range, but not so large you lose breath and intonation. Then you can refine your needs in a cup, knowing that rounded cups generally produce more overtones (brighter) than funnel shaped cups (mellower) and shallow cups tend to favor high range and deeper cups low range. But this is not absolute. I can get as high or higher on my Besson with the very deep Wick 1 it was designed for than any other mouthpiece, and my Kelly 18 is all I will use on my sousaphone, as its projection of tone and articulation are perfect for my old Conn, even with pedal tones. They happen to (within .005 of published specs) have identical rims, diameters and throats, so with only the difference in cup geometry switching back and forth is a non-issue.

That's why a lot of people, once they have reached full growth, start with a Bach 18, as it is in the middle of all of this mess: middle diameter, moderately deep cup, moderate rim: not too flat nor rounded, and go from there.

2) Which mouthpiece for your 1291: Since you have a Miraphone, have you tried Miraphone mouthpieces, from the traditional C3 and C4 (whatever they're called now) to the more specialized? I used one in grad school with a mid-sized BBb Miraphone school horn (probably a 186, but that was over 20 years ago!) and the department chair asked if I wanted to change careers from a non-music career to a performance degree! Then Bach, Wick, PT, Curry; all good brands in a wide variety of sizes and shapes. I'm not familiar with the more boutique brands, but, for example, the Warburton system is designed especially for this way of fitting a mouthpiece. You would have to check to see how far they have recovered from their factory fire, however.

[Haugan]

Bach 18s deserve a "smiley" of one kind or another. There are nearly 5 different versions (New York, NY; Mt. Vernon, NY; Early Bach 18s from Elkhart, Later Bach 18s from Elkhart, present Bach 18s (with an increase in "throat" diameter that makes them completly different from what anyone from an earlier period would even CONSIDER a Bach 188) and a myriad of copies of "18" mouthpieces ( DEG, Allora, Accent, Benge, etc, etc - usually copies of a Mt. Vernon 18) that are more like (and more consistant than) a "Bach 18" than Bach's own presently produced "18") So, when someone says "Bach 18" they could mean nearly anything depending what they may be personally familiar with. Today's Bach 18s fall short in the intonation department. The wider throat gives the illusion of a "bigger sound" (in my observation it makes the sound foggier) while destroying some of the qualities that once made this mouthpiece a viable choice. Pick up any two, and they will be different. There is MUCH greater consistancy in Bach trumpet and trombone mouthpieces. Maybe Bach thinks tuba players won't notice, or worse yet, shouldn't have reason to. If you have a choice, make sure you play them all - you will most certainly notice differences. As to what mouthpiece and how to choose it; there are a huge selection of styles, and models that players in the past had no access to. This can confuse the issue as well as facilitate it. Generally speaking, the traditional German and European mouthpieces are markedly shallower than those we tend to use in the U.S.. Interestingly enough, they tend to make the German-made tubas play better in tune, as most German tubas are designed and initially tested with these mouthpieces. They may have a throat size that you would be more likley to associate with trombone mouthpieces here in the U.S., but they probably should not be summarily dismissed from your bulk of choices for a number of reasons, the greatest being perhaps "tuba tradition" as well as the aforementioned ability to dispell intonation problems in some tubas. I recall being at the "Midwest Band & Orch. Convention" a number of years back, and Miraphone had a young German representative that was touting some model of (his own) "signature" mouthpiece. As he proudly touted and demonstrated its "great sound and power" Baltimore Symphony's tubist Dave Fedderly leaned over to me and remarked that they'de "kick me out of the orchestra if I played with a sound like that". What works in one place may be considered unacceptable somplace else. Any impression a mouthpiece may give you as being "different" or "better" may well dissappear after a week or so of using it. The PLAYER is always the greatest variable, and your own "concept" of what the sound should be will always eventually become dominant. This is not to say that mouthpiece choice is entirely negligable. The right mouthpiece should at least play the fundamental octaves in tune on YOUR OWN tuba, as well as simply "seem comfortable" when you play it. Duplicating a famous or favorite player's choice of mouthpiece is no guarantee that you will be able to duplicate that player's sound. Your lip configuration, teeth structure, oral cavity size, and a number of other factors figure into how a mouthpiece will work for you - we ALL differ from one another an what may work great for one won't work at all for another. For this reason alone, I would beware of anyone who believes "their mouthpiece" is "ideal" for anyone else. Be sure to try your choices out in the playing situations you are involved in. What sounds great in the music store may not in the ensemble you are playing in. A "standard" Helleberg (UMI) is a good starting point. A Yamaha 67C4 is a combination of several successful designs, and a relatively inexpensive one, at that. One of the "Bach 18" COPIES could be of some use, and the ACTUAL Bach 18 produced currently may work for YOU. At last, a Miraphone TU23 has been a VERY widely used "German style" mouthpiece in the U.S., It used to be "standard issue" with the Miraphone BBb's sent to the U.S. (as a Miraphone C4). With these 4 or 5 mouthpieces, you can get a pretty good idea of what works towards getting the type of sound YOU like from the tuba. Once you make a choice, you can try the myriad of variations that exist in the direction of the choice you make. One last piece of advice: YOU are the one that should make the final decision. Although it can be helpful to have the "input" of other musicians (and non-musicians, for that matter) YOU are the one who will have to be hearing "everything that comes out of the bell - all the time" and your choice as well as your "gut feeling" about a mouthpiece should be the most important consideration. Nothing says you can't switch mouthpieces for different situations as well, although keeping a somewhat consistant rim and throat size will make switching back and forth somewhat less complicated. Have fun. You are embarking on an interesting journey, to say the least.

[DaTubaKid]

When you bought your horn, did the Miraphone TU 31 mouthpiece come with it? It came with mine when I bought it a while back, and I love it to death. I feel like it really compliments the good qualities of my Miraphone. It also might just be the mouthpiece and I getting along well, not the mouthpiece and horn getting along so much.