Conn 24J

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:35 pm

Just out of curiosity....after seeing Conn 24Js and 20Js on ebay.....how do they play. Looks to me that they play similar to the old conn sousaphones. Has anyone here played one?

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:02 pm

Lots of people must have played them given the number that were made and appear to be for sale.

Seriously, I have owned 3 21Js (20J with an upright bell) and one 22J, which is the front/side action version of the 20J, over the years. They are very big heavy horns with a typically broad sound. They can provide a great foundation to a large group. The main problem, other than the top action valves, which I find uncomfortable, is the flat third partial. This means that the F just below the staff tends to be very flat when everything else is in tune, using 1-3 instead of playing it open can help, but that makes the note stuffy. I found them fun to play, but not something I would want to use every day. I have played a couple of 4 valve versions and found the 4th valve (or maybe it was just those specific horns) made it stuffier.

I also owned a 20K sousaphone. I would call them very similar in playing characteristics, including the flat third partial.

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:16 pm

thanks for keying me in.....I was just curious about them. Sometime down the road I would like to get a smaller tuba for quintet stuff, and somethign similar to those conns........but being a high school student with no job...... one tuba is doing be just fine! Maybe after bussing tables as a summer job I can pick up some spare change and put it into a tuba fund!

manatee · Post by **manatee** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:38 pm

mTaUrBkA

These things are huge. I have a 20J that may be an abberation, as it plays VERY well, but still it is not small group material.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:39 pm

As a brass collector cum historian at a non-pro level I am impressed by the invention of the short stroke pistons by especially Conn, but also by Holton, which took a quite different route to solve, what some players consider a problem of the tuba: the long stroke of the most widespread piston versions from most makers.

I will not discuss the more technical aspects of the short stroke tubas and sousaphones, as they are visually and textually quite well documented via my brass galleries. Please refer to the bottom link of my signature.

I donâ€™t own any of the short action piston instruments (GDR made short action rotary instruments of which I own two samples).

However I own a long stroke predecessor to the Conn 20K, albeit with 4 pistons (the 40K). That instrument doesnâ€™t have the flat 3rd partial apparently being an inherited part of the short stroke concept.

Is the short stroke concept a win or a loss for the tuba world?

Any serious report reaching my monitor makes me consider it a loss.

Klaus

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:34 pm

I see a lot of these huge conns go on ebay from 400-2,500. How much are they actually worth if they are in good playing condition but have some denting in a lot of the larger tubing and bell?

WilliamVance · Post by **WilliamVance** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:49 pm

My 20K seems to play right in tune on that third partial F. I love the short action valves on my sousa, but could never actually give up a front action horn for short-top-action valves and the front action 2xJ's (someone please tell me the correct model # for that style) are very hard to find from what i've seen. I think if you want that kind of action on a concert horn you should look at rotory valves, but every make has a differnt feel to the valves, so it's all opnion (and probably some skill too)

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:28 pm

mTaUrBkA wrote:I see a lot of these huge conns go on ebay from 400-2,500. How much are they actually worth if they are in good playing condition but have some denting in a lot of the larger tubing and bell?

$400-2500. OK, they are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. A 3 valve, top action, recording bell version (20J) in good playable condition, but not cosmetically perfect typically sells for between $500 -$1000. Dillon music has a couple on their website with upright bells selling for around $1200. That's not an unreasonable price.

WilliamVance wrote:I love the short action valves on my sousa, but could never actually give up a front action horn for short-top-action valves and the front action 2xJ's (someone please tell me the correct model # for that style) are very hard to find from what i've seen.

I have only ever seen one front action 2XJ. It was a model 22J with 3 valves and a recording bell. I don't know that Conn ever sold a front action version with an upright bell, but if they did it should have been a 23J if their numbering was consistent. It would follow that a 4 valve front action 2XJ would therefore be a 26J with recording bell and 27J with an upright bell, but I have never seen those model numbers used for those.

I owned a 22J having bought it from Dillon music. The model number was identified in a 1934 Conn basses catalog that came with the horn. They didn't have an upright bell or 4 valve front action version in that catalog.

I was told that a man in his 80s had brought it in to sell because it was too much for him. His father had bought it for him in 1936 (according to the sales receipt, which was stilll with it). I sold it a couple of years later because I wasn't playing it and needed the money. I'm sorry I let it go now, but it did have the flat 3rd partial problem. You can see a photo of that horn (taken in my finished practice area of my basement) here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn22J1934image.html

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:07 pm

I tried to post an image with arrows.....but failed. But one of my school's sousa has the short offset valves.....if you take the valve out and you see a small metal rod. For those who follow....what does that little rod do? The sousa is soooooooo nasty on the inside, that the rods in the valves are almost coroded through. Also, those corks in the valve are all crumbled. I am guessing thats the reason why most of my short offset valve experiences are all bad ones. ......either thats the culprit....or the bent third valve stem. Previous users of the horn didn't take care of it at all![/img][/quote]

WilliamVance · Post by **WilliamVance** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:03 am

mTaUrBkA wrote:... one of my school's sousa has the short offset valves.....if you take the valve out and you see a small metal rod. For those who follow....what does that little rod do?

The pin is the short action valve guide. I think it has to do with the off-set keys. I'm sure someone on here can give a more technical answer. I didn't quite understand how the valves worked until I actually saw it in person.

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:51 am

Has anyone figured out a way to fix a 2xJ so that it plays better? I remember the one I used in college played flat on the F and it was almost impossible to play quietly. Either a note was on or off, with nothing in between. It's quite maddening in a wind ensemble, but for laying down the bass line in a dixieland band it works fine.

-Eric

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:11 am

WilliamVance wrote:
mTaUrBkA wrote:... one of my school's sousa has the short offset valves.....if you take the valve out and you see a small metal rod. For those who follow....what does that little rod do?
The pin is the short action valve guide. I think it has to do with the off-set keys. I'm sure someone on here can give a more technical answer. I didn't quite understand how the valves worked until I actually saw it in person.

The pin is part of what Conn called their "clickless" valves. You are correct that it serves as part of the valve alignment mechanism. It serves to keep the piston aligned with the valve cap. The overall alignment is done by the valve cap, which is notched to seat in the top of the casing. It's easier to see than to describe.

Conn used this type of valve in their short action basses and in some cornets that I have seen. It seems to me to be a good alternative approach to typical bottom sprung valves to avoid valve guide noise. It is a more complex mechanism, which I guess would be more difficult to build, but I think it would be a better way to go versus current valve guides. It also allows a completely smooth outer valve surface, since there is no external guide. It seems like a variation on the top sprung valves typically found in trumpets today.

Conn also claimed to have "Crysteel" valves, which were supposedly harder. I don't know what made them different or how they made them, but I have noticed that short action Conn valves seem to stand up to use much better than typical nickel plated valves. I think that valves like these, even if not short action, would be an improvement over most piston valves made today. They would be quieter, without using nylon guides that tend to wear faster, and would last longer. Is it just too expensive to make them this way, or was there some problem with them?

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:03 am

My senior year in high school, my band director bought me a new Conn sousaphone with short stroke valves. I loved it and miss it to this day.

Brassdad · Post by **Brassdad** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:06 am

2 years ago I bought my son a 1920 Conn 2XJ (23?) with 3 upright valves.

As he gained experience from school, he stopped playing it in favor of a Yamaha his teacher "LET" him bring home to avoid it being damaged by other students who didn't seem as interested in keeping it dent free.
When I asked him why the switch, I expected to hear about the 4 valves (Yamaha 321) over the 3, or the laquer over the Conn's raw brass.
What I got was...."My F is flat, and I can't play it right."

As a non-musical dad, I had no idea as it sounded okay to me. But while my son is color blind, he does not have a tin ear.

I contacted Harv (of harvshappyhorns) and explained the situation. After a trip to his shop, and several hours of play/experimentation, he discounted replating the valves, or cutting of "plumbing". He also told me about the F problem of Conn's of that era. His suggestion was to try various mouthpieces to see if it would help.

(story is rounding third and heading for home)

I found a 1920 Frank Holton 50 mouthpiece on ebay and got it for him. Suprisingly it fixed the flat F (according to him).

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:22 am

I have a 2XJ (three top pistons and bell-front). The only complaint I have about the horn is the same as I have with most large top-action horns... I simply don't do well with them sitting in my lap. On a stand... yes... But not in my lap. They just wear me out! I would trade mine for a front-action version in a heartbeat.