Anyone have any experience with M&M Tubas?

[Alex F]

i was just considering purchasing one (BBb symphony model) but i spoke with some people before getting one to try, including the tuba exchange guy, who said that they were okay-ish, but definitely not the best for your money, that they were not as good as the horns they copied, etc. i think i'm going to go for a st. pete 202n

http://www.tubaexchange.com/product-det ... D=STP-202N

Well . . . do you think there is any possibility that the TE guy said what he said because he does not sell M&M but just happens to be the exclusive dealer for St. Pete tubas???

Noting that you are rather new to our group (and BTW Welcome In), you may want to search previous posts for information about both brands. You will find that both have strong advocates and detractors. Obviously, the beast way to choose would be a hands and mouth-on play test. I know that doing this is not always easy but my sense is that eventual satisfaction is directly proportional to first hand experience, especially when dealing with these, and some other, brands.

[Dan Schultz]

You REALLY need to play several horns before you decide which one to buy. All horns are not all things to everyone.

[Rick Denney]

You REALLY need to play several horns before you decide which one to buy. All horns are not all things to everyone.

In a case like this, I would also arrange a play test with a teacher, specifically someone who is NOT affiliated with a store. There are only a few stores I would trust with that sort of advice on the basis of their track record for recommending whatever is appropriate and not whatever they have to sell.

I'm not sure young players are the best judge of a tuba to meet their needs. They do, however, know what is shiny.

The only Chinese tubas I've played are the Dalyan tubas, and I thought they were more than competent and a good value. I've never tried the others. I thought St. Petes played okay, but I think they are overpriced at the price point that is advertised for them, compared to other things that are available. And I've heard of repair issues with them, though I have no personal experience with that. I'd rather have a good used instrument of quality make than either, for about the same price, and recommended by an independent professional.

Rick "who sees a mark" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

Thing is, I'm a broken student, who can barely afford $1500 on a tuba, and I can't really test drive alot of tubas *points to his location*. So I basically have to rely on other tubist's experiences with a certain make, or stick to the ISO's they sell over here.

I feel your pain. I do not have any experience with the horn you are thinking about buying. However, I've seen several other brands of imports that ranged everywhere from 'very acceptable' to 'unplayable'. You assume quite a bit of risk buying a horn that doesn't have a proved track record and you assume even more risk buying a horn that you have not actually played. Maybe you could recoup your investment if the horn turns out to be 'not for you'.... but you would have a much better chance of getting your money back out of a name-brand if you decide to upgrade later. The market is being flooded by imports so I can't imagine any of them holding their value very well. There appear to be descent used horns out there in your $1,500 price range. Bright and shiny isn't everything.

[Rick Denney]

I'm well aware that bright and shiny isn't everything. But out of all the used tuba sites I've seen, Very few have used tubas in my price range, and those who do, offer stuff that on top of not even including a case, look like they would need some serious work after I get my hands on them (and not precisely esthetic work).

So any pointers on where to look?

Call Matt Walters at Dillon Music, Dave Fedderly at Baltimore Brass, Roger Lewis at the Brasswind, and Tony Clements at LowBrassWerks. They are all listed on the Shops page. Let them know what you need, and your budget. They may not have anything right now, but they will keep an eye out for you.

For example, last year Baltimore Brass had a very nice old-style King 1241 with both bells for only slightly higher than your price range. It was never listed on their web page that I recall, or if it was, it didn't last long. Dillon Music frequently has instruments that may never appear on their web page that they set aside for people like you who have special needs.

All of them are honest and highly professional and will not steer you to the wrong thing. They will also know what needs to be repaired to make it playable rather than merely "sellable", which is the prime goal of an ebay seller. There are reputable ebay sellers, of course, but it's hard to know who's who.

Another option (NOT listed on the Shops page) is Mid-South Music. But you have already contacted them and if they had anything at the moment, you'd have heard from some bloke. He frequently has opportunities that become available.

Your price range is limiting and will require patience, but it is not impossible.

I think you would have to be very lucky indeed to find a $1500 Chinese tuba that plays reasonable in tune and has reasonable construction quality. The Chinese-made tubas that seem to be acceptable or decent have higher prices. You get what you pay for.

The least expensive Dalyan, for example, seems to have a street price of a little under $3000, but that does include a nice lightweight hard case.

Rick "who thinks you should forget the case and save up for that later" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

This guy is going to be clearing out his entire shop to move cross country. I bet if it doesn't have to look brand spanking new, he could fix you up with a great playing horn.

http://www.tubameister.com/

[SplatterTone]

I have two Chinese tubas -- a no-name 3-valver, and an Allora 186. No complaints about either one other than the substandard lacquer job on the no-name; but it kind of makes up for it by having good intonation and very good response.

The thing I would be more concerned about is the vendor rather than the horn. You know the shipping costs on tubas is considerable. Question #1 on my mind is: If there is a problem, who takes care of it and pays for it? (especially important given your location) I'm inclined to say that a vendor with a real music store -- not just an Internet site and a garage with some horns in it -- is more likely to assume responsibility for a problem with your tuba. I must admit that I bought my first tuba (the no-name) from what is probably a garage type vendor, and things turned out OK. But, I think (and I have my reasons) if there had been a problem, it is likely that the remedy (whatever that might be) would have been significantly, if not entirely, at my expense.

I looked on WWBW website. They have a $1500 house brand tuba with case. I know nothing about it. But a query of their shipping calculator reveals that they only ship to the 48 states and Canada.

If you can stretch your budget to $2500, it does open up a lot more choice to you. Yeah, I know: easier said than done.

And for what it's worth: I'm very leery of buying used horns from unknown sellers based on brand name and external appearance. You don't know if the inside of it was well cared for or abused. Did the previous owner drink sugared soft drinks and eat caramels and Cheetos while playing, then put the thing away wet, and only oiled it when the valves/rotors started sticking? If we're talking about taking a risk, that, I think, is taking a risk. A used horn from a conscientious, knowledgeable seller should be OK.

Just in case it comes up in your shopping, note that nowhere above did I mention horns from India. Nope. Not there. Nothing.
...
but they sometimes make good fixer-uppers if you're handy ... which is how women should find you if they don't find you attractive.

[prototypedenNIS]

I have two Chinese tubas -- a no-name 3-valver, and an Allora 186.

Are you sure it's chinese?
There are some German Stencil Companies around.
Many of Allora's horns were made by VMI and Gerhard Baier

[Dan Schultz]

I have two Chinese tubas -- a no-name 3-valver, and an Allora 186.

Are you sure it's chinese?
There are some German Stencil Companies around.
Many of Allora's horns were made by VMI and Gerhard Baier

In our modern Global economy, it's hard telling exactly where various parts are coming from. What's most important is the reputation and quality control of the assembly point. U.S. manufacturers have used imported parts for years. I'm sure the Germans are doing the same.

[SplatterTone]

Are you sure it's chinese?

I don't know for an absolute fact. But based on evidence:
1. WWBW's Czech horns are usually a little more expensive.
2. Czech horns usually say so somewhere on the horn.

Note that wwbw makes a point of saying that the Allora 105 tuba is not Chinese. And considering the size of the Allora 105 compared to the 186, I'd say the Allora 105 is more expensive per cubic inch of horn.

3. The metal polishing and lacquer of the better Czech horns these days is usually a notch or two above the Chinese horns. Although there is nothing bad about those things on the Allora 186, it does not match what one sees (usually) on a VMI, for example.

But still, the 186 might indeed come from some place other than China.

[Uncle Buck]

Dan is too polite to pitch his used horns to you directly, so I'll do it for him. He has a few that are close to your price range that might do better than a new one of a . . . questionable . . . manufacturer. (If I had the cash on hand, I'd grab up the Carl Wunderlich.)

http://thevillagetinker.com

and

http://thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm

[Dan Schultz]

Dan is too polite to pitch his used horns to you directly, so I'll do it for him. ...... (If I had the cash on hand, I'd grab up the Carl Wunderlich.)

Thanks for the plug. Y'know, the more I play the Wunderlich, the more I think I'll just keep it a sell the Miraphones! BTW... Ed Stregge has a 'Sonora' on the auction that is identical to my Wunderlich. He mentioned that thought the 'Sonora' was made by Amati, but in reality, both the 'Carl Wunderlich' AND the 'Sonora' are GDR stencils made by B & S. They are excellent horns that were sold rather cheaply to schools during the 70's. I with I had a couple dozen of 'em!