Cerveny euphs...

[prototypedenNIS]

I played one for half a year in Grade 12...

the 4 valve upright bell model...
I had loops of masking tape on the levers because the action was soo slow that I would actually pull them back up.

Tuning was bad, tone was bad, valves were bad.

My teacher swapped it (it was on rental) for a Bach USA EUphonium (YEP321), then apparantly my tone came around, my playing became clearer and I was the instrument he was using to tune the brass.

I had started on an Amati 341... a much better horn.
Now as a tech, I spent far too much time doing MDRS dentwork on the tubas and euphoniae.

[imperialbari]

Previous-Warsaw Pact countries’ piston valves’ instruments are dubious. I think the former GDR-conglomerate of B&S technically has improved immensely due to Western ownership. It is my understanding, that all Meinl-Weston pistons actually are mare in Markneukirchen.

I don’t trust the Czechs in piston matters yet.

Their commi-era ovals were great players, but technically vulnerable.

I don’t consider the euphs out of the British tradition (as we all know greatly improved in Japan and Switzerland) and the larger oval German/Czech/Russian equivalent instruments.

The instruments out of the British tradition can carry immense amounts of sound, if they are equipped with the right (that’s large) mouthpieces. When played with too small mouthpieces even by recognised players, they can sound like bad trombones, when overblown.

The best Cerveny oval Bariton samples, and here we are speaking pre-1930 like the samples owned by Bloke and myself, aren’t brasses. They are vocalists. If you will ascribe them to the Italian bell canto style or to the primitive beauty of Central European folksy singing as found in Bavaria, solely depends on your own approach.

But these Germanophones/Czecho-ovoids have one problem making them less suited for most US players. They never shall be overloaded. The result is ugly beyond belief. Not trombone-like, just pure disaster like repeatedly throwing cymbals on a concrete floor.

That comes from the very thin metal, which on the other hand lends an ease of playability to these instruments not found in my after all personal favourite, the YEP-641. I love to be heard clearly through a band with a buttery sound not displaying any sorts of stress or tendencies to break-ups.

Klaus

[elimia]

I'm believe the Tennessee Tech Tuba/Euphonium ensemble uses them - Cervany euphoniums are part of their "sound". Winston Morris certainly knows what he is doing, so maybe they're not all bad. I've never played one personally.

[quinterbourne]

YEP321s - get it! Most bang for your buck. You can find them all over the place on ebay. Yamaha makes very consistent instruments since they are all off an assembly line, you won't find many "duds" you may find with the european brands.

Find one with some moderate cosmetic damage - some dents in the bottom bow and silver wear, and you can easy get one for under $900US. Get another almost cosmetically perfect for around $1200US. Your choice.

There are a few out there in lacquer that go for real cheap too. Just search ebay for it, you should be able to find 2 or 3 at almost any time.

[imperialbari]

I'm believe the Tennessee Tech Tuba/Euphonium ensemble uses them - Cervany euphoniums are part of their "sound". Winston Morris certainly knows what he is doing, so maybe they're not all bad. I've never played one personally.

I never named the ovals bad, just very different.

I own 3 ovals in Eb, C, and BBb, still hunting for a certain Amati Bb Tenorhorn. Only I was the one who acquired it for the local Railway Band 20+ years ago, so I am extremely aware of the right price.

If I recall reports on the Tennessee Tech situation right, it was based on a special relationship with Miraphone.

If you ever experienced TV shows with my favourite representative of German folksy brass, the late Mr. Moss, then you would learn, that he could afford compensating for the lack of mass-of-sound from the ovals by simply doubling the manning on each of these parts.

His successors have cut the oval manning down to just two small bore Tenorhörner playing in thirds. The sound is different, but equally marvellous. I guess the sound engineer is an important factor in the balancing with the rest of the band.

Klaus

[quinterbourne]

okay, who makes a good rotary valve euphonium? Are there any pro-level rotary valve euphoniums? (compensating, european/large bore..not for students). Who makes them?

~cassie

Rotary valve euphoniums are VERY rare. Most euphoniums have top action valves, and rotary valves only work with front action valves.

There is the crummy cerveny:
http://www.wwbw.com/Cerveny-CEP5314MR-- ... 8956.music

Thein makes a 3 rotary valve "baritone" for $5600-7000US
They also make a 5 rotary valve "tenor tuba" for $11250US.
http://www.thein-brass.de/index_en.php
Those prices don't include shipping, taxes or duties.
*I'm sure they are super fine instruments, but the prices are rather unreasonable.

There's also ebay...
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2006-ROTARY-SIL ... dZViewItem
I would imagine this will be one major POS from India/China.

------

It seems like the only euphoniums/baritone/tenor tubas that use rotary valves are the ones that have the bell point off towards the side, which I personally do not like.

I think getting a proper rotary valve euphonium will involve contacting a manufacturer and ordering a custom instrument or getting a super good repair shop (ie Oberloh) to alter an instrument for you.

Getting the Thein instruments are, in my opinion, a complete waste of money. You may as well get the top Yamaha/Willson/Besson model euphonium and just deal with the pistons.

[quinterbourne]

Well, I already play a YEP 321, and I need a better euphonium. The fact it is non-compensating, and small bore is holding me back (I've been told, and I kind of agree).It IS a GREAT euphonium! I love it to, but I have grown out of it.

I am asking about rotary valve euph's because I have never had the chance to hear one, play on one, and I haven't really heard anything about them before.

~cassie

The following 4 valve compensating models are on ebay right now:
Willson 2950
Besson BE968
Besson Sovereign
Besson BE765

Also check out:
http://www.wwbw.com/
http://63.126.125.94/cgi-bin/classified ... ifieds.cgi
http://www.baltimorebrass.net/
http://www.tubaexchange.com/
http://www.dillonmusic.com/
http://www.tubastore.com/
... or the for sale section of this forum

Probably a good idea to try out a bunch of different brands and models... drive 3 hours south to South Bend, Indiana and go to the Woodwind and Brasswind store. They have a great selection of Yamaha, Besson and Willson euphoniums.

[Donn]

I think getting a proper rotary valve euphonium will involve contacting a manufacturer and ordering a custom instrument or getting a super good repair shop (ie Oberloh) to alter an instrument for you.

Along with ones Cerveny makes, there's Alexander. Fairly reputable manufacturer. (I have an Alexander baritone http://www.drizzle.com/~donn/alex.jpg with pistons, which of course isn't what you want but you could probably have it pretty cheap!)

Seems to me there was a nice looking Cerveny in the for sale section here a couple months back, maybe still for sale. Couldn't tell which model.

Und, check out der Miraphone - http://www.miraphone.de - and under Produkte, suchen for Bariton (not Euphonium.) Models not commonly available in the US, I gather, but still in the worst case this would be better than cobbling one together (with what valve section?)

[imperialbari]

YEP321s - get it!

Well, I already play a YEP 321, and I need a better euphonium. The fact it is non-compensating, and small bore is holding me back (I've been told, and I kind of agree).It IS a GREAT euphonium! I love it to, but I have grown out of it.

I am asking about rotary valve euph's because I have never had the chance to hear one, play on one, and I haven't really heard anything about them before.

~cassie

The term of a rotary valve euph is an oxymoron in the ears of a continental European having had a brass existence in 45 years starting out in the very specific Danish brass tradition after having lived his first 11 years in Germany.

We used German type instruments in the Danish scores, which were much more leanly scored than the huge German bands. There is a lot of political and military story lying behind that statement. Please refer to earlier postings of mine on both the present and the former TubeNet.

When it comes to compensating instruments and rotary valves, then you will find several samples within the horn world. Paxman has made compensating Wagner tubas.

However the only sample of rotary compensation within the euph-through-tuba family I ever encountered has been a Hirsbrunner 3RV BBb tuba not represented in their current catalogue.

Glassl at least some years ago made a very special German Bariton with a Sterling silver leadpipe and a tilted 4th valve slide allowing for manual compensation of low range intonation shortcomings.

Every sample mentioned above here can be found documented in my brass galleries. Please refer to the bottom link in my signature. And please be aware, that some browser will report an error, if you haven’t joined the free and open for all gallery group in question. This can be done easily via the links for the home page of every group as represented in the index.

If you might want to be invited to all of my gallery groups, please send me a note on

YorkMasterBBb@yahoo.com

Whenever I update the index, I then will invite you to join. The intervals of time may vary between 1 and 3 months depending on the speed of expansion of the gallery project.

Klaus

[Kevin Hendrick]

It seems like the only euphoniums/baritone/tenor tubas that use rotary valves are the ones that have the bell point off towards the side, which I personally do not like.

You might want to take a look at these:

Cerveny CEP 533 (Bb upright)
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... p_533g.htm

Cerveny CEP 534 (C upright)
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... p_534g.htm

Cerveny CEP 538 (Bb bell-front)
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... p_538g.htm

(the URLs above are pictures of the respective instruments -- the specs can be found by scrolling to the bottom and clicking on the Rotary Valve Euphoniums link)

Meinl-Weston 49
http://www.meinl-weston.com/euphoniums.htm
(scroll down to the bottom)

Miraphone 56A (upright -- Bb and C) and 56B (bell-front -- Bb only)
http://www.miraphone.de/
(click on search, then search on baritone, then scroll down (you'll find pictures and specs for both upright and bell-front Bb versions, as well as specs for the upright in C)

This is not an exhaustive listing -- just the ones I know of. Hope it helps!

[Ace]

I owned a Cerveny C upright bell euphonium (with spare main tuning slide in Bb) with four rotary valves. The horn was built like a tank, beautifully finished, and had a gorgeous tone of considerable dynamic capability. I took it to brass quintet one night and the group loved it.

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... p_534g.htm

Cerveny shipped the thing with an 11CL mouthpiece. Big mistake, I think. I put a European shank 3G on the horn and it was transformed. A Schilke 57 had a similar effect on the instrument. The bigger mouthpieces cleaned up some intonation problems and really opened up the low range.

I think the Yamaha 321 is a better instrument than the Cerveny above; thus, if you have "outgrown" the 321, you wouldn't want to consider the Cerveny.

[elimia]

Cassie,

If you're just looking to upgrade your horn, you'll substantially improve your chances of getting a good horn if you stick with pistons. By far, the best lot of euphoniums out there are piston horns. I personally can't think of a single reason I would personally want a rotary horn - pistons are so versatile.

For your situation, I would advise a Weril H980 (4 valve non-compensating, but large shank), which has a terrific sound and is very reasonably priced. I sold one in virtually brand new condition for just under $1,000. They sell used for like $1,300. Some of the VMI euphoniums are very good, but I would advise you play them first to get a good one. If you are willing to spend $2k, you could pick up a Yamaha 641 or Yamaha 642 (both are compensating horns, large shank). The 641 is what I play now and it is a really sweet horn, it has such a strong, core sound to it. My only complaint is that it is a LITTLE stuffy in the low register, but not too much. With Yamahas you can almost always be guaranteed really consistent intonation between horns as they machine their instruments rigourously. I think of Yamahas as the Hondas of euphonium world - not the flashiest thing out there but very reliable and capable of high performance.

Remember, it isn't the horn that makes the great sound but the performer. Steven Mead would still sound like Steven Mead no matter what horn you stuck in his lap. He sounds really darn good on a Besson though!

[elimia]

Cassie,

They sell used for like $1,300.

I meant that they sell NEW for $1,300.

[imperialbari]

There is nothing stuffy to the lowest register of a YEP-641, as soon as you have mounted a main tuning slide trigger.

Klaus

[jacobg]

I think all the German brass companies make rotary baritones.
Here's the K+H:
http://www.khbrass.com/KHmain/page18/baritones.html

I've also seen St. Petersburg rotary baritones, as well as many other Eastern European varieties.

In Serbia, if you've got a Cerveny, you're in pretty good shape. Boban Markovic's band uses mainly Cerveny's (tenorhorns I think).

I personally can't think of a single reason I would personally want a rotary horn - pistons are so versatile.

Unless you're playing Balkan/German brass band music.

[MaryAnn]

I have a MW 49 4-valve rotary bariton. If you are needing a larger instrument this is not for you....it looks just like a tiny version of the MW 182 F tuba (they are so cute together in pictures, like father-son) and is stuffy in exactly the same way in the low range as the F tuba is. It has a brighter sound than a typcial piston euph, too. So I doubt that is the direction you want to go. As in the F tuba, the stuffiness disappears when the embouchure relaxes. For some this never happens.

Lady in our band just bought a 3+1 Willson off ebay; she previously was a Yamaha lady. She had a hard time getting used to the Willson, almost gave up; she said the sound was so different she'd be on a different partial than she thought she was. Food for thought....however she loves it now.

MA

[jacobg]

it looks just like a tiny version of the MW 182 F tuba
MA

I assume it's an upright bell model. Is there such thing as an oval-shaped tuba?

Is there any historical reason for the oval shape? I know American civil war-era horns are over-the-shoulder so that marchers behind could stay in step, and recording bells are for, well, recording, but why oval and why sideways? To face the same direction as the helicon?

[Kevin Hendrick]

Hope this works properly:

[elimia]

There is nothing stuffy to the lowest register of a YEP-641, as soon as you have mounted a main tuning slide trigger.

Klaus

Klaus, I've been curious about those for this horn. Where does one locate one for the YEP-641?

[Dan Satterwhite]

Are the oval euphoniums that Tennessee Tech uses not Miraphone?