Donn wrote:I read somewhere that an ensemble may actually prefer to tune up with the "foreground" instruments (like violin) a little sharper than the background (like tuba.)
On the piano its called "stretch tuning" and yes, it makes a big difference on the piano - the lower notes are about 20 cents flat and the higher are about 20 cents sharp. Stretched tuned pianos just sound nicer to our ears, and even most modern digital pianos and electronic keyboards have their piano patches stretch tuned.
I am not sure of the merits of stretch tuning in an orchestra, but I am sure it is much better to rely on one'e ears then be looking at one's needle.
MartyNeilan wrote:I am not sure of the merits of stretch tuning in an orchestra, but I am sure it is much better to rely on one'e ears then be looking at one's needle.
... a.k.a. "contemplating one's shortcomings"?
"Don't take life so serious, son. It ain't nohow permanent." -- Pogo (via Walt Kelly)
The stretch tuning comes from how much of the sound we get from harmonics. With the lower pitched strings on a piano, the ear and brain hear the harmonics which are registered in the brain as slightly sharp against the middle. With the high strings, it's the fundamental that is heard and registered as slightly flat against the middle.
I'm guessing that this model does not translate to everything. To my knowledge, pipe organs are not stretched tuned. Taking the piano stretch tuning logic and applying to organ tuning might yield some interesting results. I assume it would mean putting the pedal bourdon in tune, and making the pedal fagotto a little flat. Although there is a variety tuning schemes for organs, I haven't heard of that one. (not that it doesn't exist)
urbie watrous wrote:In high school (back in the late Pleistocene), I used to tune a little sharp, playing first trombone. That's because the orchestra was never any good -- so I opted to be a little bit on top of their indeterminate pitch, rather than risk being a little under it.
... thus skewing the "bell curve" a bit to the right (and probably reducing the standard deviation, as well) ...
"Don't take life so serious, son. It ain't nohow permanent." -- Pogo (via Walt Kelly)
Regarding piano "stretch" tuning and is relation (or lack thereof) to orchestral tunings:
A piano string, when struck, has overtones that are sharp relative to the fundamental (they are off compared to true harmonics). This is unlike the majority of other musical instruments. The mechanism for this is that a vibrating string dynamically stretches and relaxes during its vibratory cycle. A stretched string is sharper. [This dynamic sharpness does not, of course, affect the fundamental.] Another interesting thing about piano strings is that as a held note decays in volume, the overtones get more in tune (less string stretching).
A piano tuner has two choices:
1) Tune a piano's octaves exactly right. Then, when the pianist plays ocatves or large chords, the out-of-tune overtones clash with the in-tune octaves and other intervals, and it sounds terrible.
2) Stretch the tuning of the piano's octaves, so the octaves agree with the sharp overtones. Make the low end flat and the high end sharp. Now, the piano sounds much better.
Piano tuners generally take Choice 2. It's quite a compromise, as the amount of stretching that is needed varies between loud and soft playing. Of course, one can decide that medium loudness should be made as good as possible, high loudness should be allowed to be harsh-sounding, and low volume can't be heard well enough for pitch criticism.
As you can see, this problem is peculiar to the piano, and perhaps some other struck-string instruments. The fretted plucked string instruments have even more pitch problems...
Of course, if we really want to have a pitch discussion, we can talk about temperaments, and what an abomination equal temperament is, and how keyboard instruments are to blame...
Not that I have any opinions.
Cheers,
Allen
Who did not comment about the pitch sense of keyboard players, no, not at all.
Allen wrote:Of course, if we really want to have a pitch discussion, we can talk about temperaments, and what an abomination equal temperament is, and how keyboard instruments are to blame...
... and something you need to be able to play beyond if you are going to play in any decent symphony
It's good that you can get your piano into a good (compromise) state of tune. Most people don't care enough.
One of the banes of my musical life is trying to play with pianos. School pianos are all too often out of tune ("we don't have the budget"). It's especially sad to hear good and costly pianos (such as Steinways) in a poor state of maintenance. Home pianos are usually not only out of tune with themselves; they are quite flat in general. After years of neglect, they cannot be brought up to pitch.
I manage to shock people by suggesting that their fine (out-of-tune) pianos should be replaced by electronic pianos. The electronic pianos may not be in a class with a $45,000 Steinway, but at least after some years of neglect they are still in-tune musical instruments.
A side note: My brother plays mostly his own music when he plays the piano. His music is strongly modal. He likes to tune his piano to a temperament that suits his music -- definitely not equal. We get a great deal of amusement out of hearing another pianist sit down and try to play some typical more modern-style music -- it sounds awful! My brother sometimes pretends complete innocence, saying, "the piano sounds OK when I play it."
Another side note: Anyone ever try to play a clavichord? The pitch of each string depends on the exact pressure you use on each key. With practice, you can get a nice vibrato (it's called "bebung"). The real challenge is to be able to play even a scale in tune. This is something tubists should be familiar with.
bloke wrote:Steve Marcus probably can weigh in on this. He sells Steinway pianos, has done so for years, and (though I don't think he does a lot of tech work) knows tons about pianos.
Nope, Bloke, I have nothing to add. What you've posted is entirely accurate.
I have never been into tuning before I play with a group. I like to adjust while playing. Something that I don't really think about. It just happens naturally.
I keep my tuning slide in the same position most of the time. There have been a few occations that I've needed to adjust it, but for the most part I think a good player can tune by pulling slides and using their lip.
Tuning is all part of a good blend of sound. If one can get away from thinking too hard about it, it should just come naturally while playing.
MellowSmokeMan wrote:I have never been into tuning before I play with a group. I like to adjust while playing. Something that I don't really think about. It just happens naturally.
I keep my tuning slide in the same position most of the time. There have been a few occations that I've needed to adjust it, but for the most part I think a good player can tune by pulling slides and using their lip.
Tuning is all part of a good blend of sound. If one can get away from thinking too hard about it, it should just come naturally while playing.
Amen. To quote our most famous (french) horn god:
"You listen dutifully to the oboe, look at your slides,
pull the main slide a bit and then put it back where
it has been for the last seven years!"
Like MellowSmokeMan, I may do a brief tuning check before we start but prefer to tune as we go along. Most slide adjustment is for extra warm or cold conditions and the slide usually winds up in the same old position before the gig ends.
