Not a BBb vs CC diary

[Brassdad]

Having gone through the archives on the subject of BBb vs CC I don't want to focus on that old chestnut as I don't expect I would find much in the way of new discussion since 1998 to present.

I am wondering about the nature of college players "needing" CC tubas. On the old threads, there was a discussion of this possibly being a hold over of when "CCs were better horns than BBbs".

As MANY here are aware I am searching for a tuba for my son. I've been looking mostly at BBb (okay, nearly exclusively) as this is what the Middle and High Schools use in thier tubas. As $ is always a factor in decisions (especially where tubas are concerned), I'm wondering at the wisdom of spending $2,000 to $3,000 for a BBb just to "assist" him in the purchase of a CC in 4 short years.

I am going to speak with his private instructor in this matter, and have inquired (via email) with the local high school teacher. In both cases it will be January before I will have an oportunity to get a response from either of them.

In a recent email between myself and the HS teacher, I found the school has one Yamaha YBB-641 in very good conditions, two Yamaha YBB-321 in "decent" condition (lots of dents, but no "crushing blows"), and one old 3 upright piston tuba that he couldn't remember the make of (but did say it was "not very good")

Was wondering if I could scour the brain trust here over this issue. My questions:
a. If high school builds on musical ability and skills taught at middle school. Will the need to do BBb fingering in school be 1) existant, 2) of greater importance than hitting the right notes? (will it matter if he plays BBb or CC)
b. If his private instructor teaches him the CC fingerings, and my son were to take his CC tuba to school for use, will this disrupt the teacher in his teaching of the other tuba players and my son? (If my son doesn't have to constantly bother the teacher for "special" CC instructions)
c. If I pruchase a BBb tuba, will there really be a requirement to buy a CC at college, or has that "passed"?

As this will be a purchase to replace the 1920 BBb Conn I bought him on ebay, I'm not sure I want to repeat the process that soon.

[Uncle Buck]

Whether the "need" for a CC tuba in college is real or imagined has been discussed to death, but I tend to think it is more imagined than real.

Nevertheless, the need is a percieved one, and in almost any college there will be pressure to get a CC tuba.

It's really more a matter of evaluating your son. Is he the type that is likely to buck the pressure, and stand firm if he knows he has a quality BBb horn? Or will he, during those 18-20 early college years, want the coolness factor of playing CC?

As for the immediate future, you are on the right track to consult with the high school teacher. Even if playing on a CC in high school would ideally be the right thing for your son, if his band director thinks it is a bad idea, that will be an ongoing battle that probably isn't worth the trouble.

[sinfonian]

The other factor is that while in High School your son will probably be in marching band. Chances are in Marching Band he will play a Sousaphone. Unless you get a special made sousaphone it will be a BBb. A good tuba player can switch back and forth but why bother if you don't have to.

[Dean E]

a. If high school builds on musical ability and skills taught at middle school. Will the need to do BBb fingering in school be 1) existant, 2) of greater importance than hitting the right notes? (will it matter if he plays BBb or CC) . . . .

Reading and playing the right notes should come first.

It sounds like you're thinking quite a way down the road--high school and college. Eight years? A lot can change in that time. I made my sons pay half of the cost of their college toys--cars and computers. They get "invested" in the decision process that way. They appreciate the parent's donfidence in their decision-making, and are not likely to feel resentment about having a decision imposed on them.

1. A student marches with BBb sousas, in most cases, unless he or she ends up with a G. Marching and doing pep band assignments with a BBb horn will create some "negative transference," for a few weeks, with a student who switches to CC for lessons, solos, ensembles and concerts. Why not keep it simple? There's plenty of work in focusing on progressively advanced playing, such as different keys of pieces played, new styles, and new ensemble skills.

2. On the other hand, learning a CC's fingerings and playing characteristics might be a satisfying challenge once the basics are met. I got my first CC horn last month and enjoy the learning experience. I played Eb and BBb in grade school and high school in the 50s and 60s, then, after nearly 40 years, resumed playing with Eb horns two years ago because I got a great York Eb monster on auction.

3. No matter what key instrument, a smaller 3 or 4-valve horn would be easier to carry from home or dorm to the music building, and less prone to be damaged, simply because the horn and gig bag would be lighter than a full-size horn.

[Charlie Goodman]

Well, for what it's worth, I've played CC for half of high school.

It hasn't affected the band director's teaching at all. I think, by high school, there's little to nothing in the way of "press this button for this note" kind of instruction from the band director. I think the "need" for BBb in high school is fairly nonexistant. Yes, sousaphones are in BBb... I don't know about you other people who switch fingerings for marching band, but I haven't encountered anything technically that I wouldn't be able to figure out quickly even with my limited conversion abilities. You do lose the common tuning tendencies with the other BBb tubas, but if your son is already looking at what tuba he'll need in college, he'll probably be able to adjust well enough. I would suggest that you do get a tuba that'll last him, and that he won't need to trade in the minute he gets to a higher level of performance.

[windshieldbug]

Also FWIW, my community band is helmed by active school teachers. Besides myself on CC, the abut section consists of an Eb, and a BBb. When the band is doing tuning/blending exercises, the plethora of keys has never bothered any of the directors concerning fingerings, alternate fingerings, suggested fingerings, etc. These people do this for a living, and they have that crucial split second longer to transpose at sight if they need to. They learned trumpet in methods as a transposing instrument, so they they do know C fingerings via a concert score. They know both clefs, and better know Bb transposition, so it's not that big a deal to switch back and forth. They may not be used to it for a tuba, but again, it's not anything they shouldn't be doing already. A lot.

[Tabor]

I'm not the expert on here by any means, but I recently guest conducted a tubachristmas, and the tradition at that particular tubachristmas is that the guest conductor plays a little solo in the middle, like an intermission, to give the participants a little rest. I played it on my BBb, because it is the best tuba I have. I overheard one of the players remark to another about the "great sound that can come out of a fancy CC tuba like that one".

If I were buying for a high school student, I'd go with the best CC, BBb (or even Eb tuba) I could get for the money available. A top quality used horn in great condition doesn't depreciate too much, just in case he changes his mind.

[Rick Denney]

In the whole discussion of which pitch instrument a high-school kid should use, there is MUCh less than meets the eye.

In terms of instrument quality that is accessible by all but a handful of high-school kids, there is no practical difference between a competent mid-grade instrument and a high-price instrument intended for use by professionals. It is an artifact of American tradition more than anything that most tubas in the first group are BBb and most in the second group are CC.

If your kid is not in that handful, then he will live a long and happy life playing BBb, even if he goes into music education.

Here's the important point: If your kid is in that handful, then he will ultimately be expected to be at least comfortable on all four pitches of tubas. The kids who have enough musical talent to make it are not the ones who will have difficulty making transitions when and if it suits them. You will not be stunting the development of such a kid by starting him out on a BBb tuba.

Another important point: You won't know if your kid is in that handful until he has played tuba for a while. In fact, you probably won't know until at least part way through college. Some glow in the dark earlier, but if he's THAT good, he'll be telling you what he needs, not the other way around, and his teachers will be courting him rather than giving him orders.

Also, there's just no sense in paying the price for a C tuba for a kid just starting out. I'd far rather have a proven, competent BBb tuba than a bottom-of-the-line CC tuba at the same price. A good CC tuba is built for the professional market and is priced accordingly.

As to the playing advantages or disadvantages, there is no practical difference. The closer a student player is to that handful of those with legitimate aspirations to a performing career, the more easily they will make any adjustments that a given instrument requires. And intonation foibles are no less common on CC tuba than on BBb; in fact, one could make the argument that it goes the other way.

Bloke mentioned the college political aspect. If the kid is in that handful and is seeking a performance degree, then some professors may expect him to switch to a C tuba. Fighting the professor is always a bad idea. By that time, though, he'll be at the point where he has to learn all fingering systems (which was Mr. Bug's point). In music education, it just doesn't matter--your kid will make his own choice for his own reasons and will have the training he needs to make that choice. I have played in bands with mixed tubas that played in tune, and in bands with all the same instruments that played out of tune.

Rick "who can't think of a top pro he's met that didn't start out on BBb at least up through college" Denney

[tofu]

Some excellent points have been already made. One thing from a practical side is if you get a CC and he takes this to school to play in band is he going to drag it back and forth in order to practice at home? I did this when in HS and it can get old after awhile.

Also, is there is probably a good chance of damage to the horn while it is at school as others don't seem to respect tubas as much more than garbage cans. How safe is the place where the horn will be stored while at school is something to consider.

A friend of mine is an excellent tuba player and junior high band instructor and she has had several private lesson students switch to CC when they were/are sophmores in HS and that has worked really well with several of them getting into some of the best college tuba studios in the country. I've played with some of these kids and they are amazing. They seemed to have no problem switching back and forth from BBb to CC and vice versa.

I think it comes down to how talented the player is, his or her ambitions, private lesson teacher evaluation/input and last but not least your and/or the students pocketbook. One thing about tubas' is they seem to hold their value very well. I have friends who bought Miraphones and Rudy Meinl's 30 years ago in high school and today those horns are worth several times what they originally paid.

There are several excellent BBb horns on the market today and they are a lot cheaper than CC's of comparable quality. Whichever way you go if it doesn't work out you probably will still get your money back out of the horn if it is well taken care of.

Good Luck in your horn hunt and good luck to your son with his playing.

[Allen]

I will second Rick here. I'll also add one other thing: For each pitch tuba, there are no easy or difficult keys; there are only keys you practice and those you don't.

Why don't you go shopping for a good tuba regardless of key in your price range? A used tuba can be a good bet if you can have a professional check it out. The chances are, you will wind up with a BBb, as there are more instruments available at reasonable (lower) prices than a CC.

A few years ago, I went shopping for a tuba for my return to playing our noble instrument. I intended to buy a BBb, as that is what I was used to (along with Eb). However, a CC tuba followed me home; I just liked it so much. When I buy my next tuba, I won't know what key I'm shopping for until I find the tuba I like.

Allen,
the key agnostic

[Chuck Jackson]

The Arms Race in Tubadom: Pricey

Teaching a Kid to Make Music on what they have: Priceless


Who cares what ANYONE plays as long as the musical intent is honest. I still say if Arnold Jacobs had played a Generic BBb, most of tubadom would be tearing the world up looking for that horn because they thought it was the vehicle. I can think of no bigger insult to a persons musicality than to put the credit on the horn.


Chuck

[Brassdad]

I can think of no bigger insult to a persons musicality than to put the credit on the horn.


Chuck

What about those blaming the musicality on the horn?

I know the answer already as I am a bit of a wood worker.

[Donn]

Bloke mentioned the college political aspect. If the kid is in that handful and is seeking a performance degree, then some professors may expect him to switch to a C tuba. Fighting the professor is always a bad idea.

Why fight? Professor wants new tuba for student, professor buys one for student, everyone's happy!

[windshieldbug]

I still say if Arnold Jacobs had played a Generic BBb, most of tubadom would be tearing the world up looking for that horn because they thought it was the vehicle.

And I have #3 of that model safely stashed in my backyard fallout shelter to save it from the coming ice age!

[Brassdad]

I'm going to agree with Rick, Bloke, Chuck, CK, etc...

I can't vouch for this specific horn, but if I were seriously in the market for a horn for my youngster, I'd be talking to this guy ASAP:

viewtopic.php?t=11367

For where you're at in the scheme of things, value is a real issue. Call me crazy, but I don't know where you can come up with a CC that plays anywhere near as well as a VMI 2103 for under 3K.

Good luck to you, and let us know how it turns out.

Regards,

Tony E

I agree with Tony-- I would be all over this, like ugly on a platypus.

I have looked at this add. I have bassclef, dillon music, oberloh, baltimore brass, and a couple of others on my favorites list.
When I started looking I was hoping to stay very near $1,000. But doing research and reading here showed me that wasn't really being realistic or fair to my son. I've regeared my brain to look for nearer to $2,000.

Was also wondering about the St. Petersburg K02 they are listing at dillon for $2195. Closer to my present price range.

.828 bore, and a gig bag. Slightly larger bore than the 2103 , but with a smaller bell (does that matter?) and a few hundred cheaper.
Tomorrow I go to look at the King 1241, and will probably stop at Baltimore Brass Co to see what they have as well.

[Steve Inman]

<<snip>>

I have looked at this add. I have bassclef, dillon music, oberloh, baltimore brass, and a couple of others on my favorites list.
When I started looking I was hoping to stay very near $1,000. But doing research and reading here showed me that wasn't really being realistic or fair to my son. I've regeared my brain to look for nearer to $2,000.

Was also wondering about the St. Petersburg K02 they are listing at dillon for $2195. Closer to my present price range.

Dan ( http://thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm) has rescued a few high school Miraphones and are reasonably priced. Very decent BBb horn for high school / college. IMO, a better horn than the St. Pete, by far. FYI.

Miraphone 186 tubas... 4 rotary valves. I have several of these that I rescued from a closed repair shop. All are raw brass. Some have patched bells. They have been disassembled, dedented, cleaned, and repaired. They aren't perfect but they are very good playing horns ranging in price from $1,500 to $2,300

[Dan Schultz]

...also, I remember Ed Strege (Badger State Music in Wisconsin ..."mrstregs" eBay) recently offered one of the BBb versions..."Sonora" (B&S-made) He was confused regarding its original and, in his description, guessed that it was made by Cerveny...appears to have some significant denting, no bids, opening bid was $1850...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7373634706



Finally, I found a CC "Sonora" (a B&S with 4 rotors) at baltimorebrass.net for only $1500.

The 'Sonora' and 'Carl Wunderlich' tubas were indeed built by B & S. The receiver of my Carl Wunderlich is stamped 'GDR'... obviously for German Democratic Republic. It's a great horn... made in the 70's. These horns are a real deal (at least I think so).

[TubaSteve]

You may also look at this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/F-E-Olds-and-Son-BB ... dZViewItem

I played on one of these in High School. The one I played on was a Reynolds, but these are the same horn as they merged in the 60's. I thought that this had a nice sound and is actually on my list of horns that I want to accuire. I want one with a recording bell, but I played both versions. This is a 4 valve horn and is certainly within your budget. This also comes with two cases and that may be a plus for a student. I would strongly recomend this or a real horn as apposed to one of the Asian imports. Used Meinl Westons 25's, Miraphone 186's are hard to beat, There are also some MW 20's that show up from time to time. Almost the same as the 25 but with a smaller bell. Anyone else have any experience with these Olds horns?
Steve

[Brassdad]

Thought I'd posted the results of the trip, but can't find it.
Took my son to Baltimore on the 23rd of Dec. At Baltimore Brass he got to tryout a Conn 5J, a new King 2341, an old recording bell King 2341 (former Navy Band Director tuba), and their Symphonique 5 valve BBb advertised on their website. I liked the idea of the 5 valve Symphonique which was at the upper end of my range (after conceptual trade-in), Michael liked the old 2341. He said that he thought he got a "rounder sound" out of it.
We then went to the Brass Arts and he spent some time with the King 1241. He allowed that it played great. Only a couple of dents, and a few odd scratches in the bell. No trade in available there as they are mostly a french horn and similar horns. Will be talking further with Mark Thiele next month, and waiting for the Ft Myer tuba event.

Appreaciate all the thoughts, recommendations, and assistance.

[SplatterTone]

Appreaciate all the thoughts, recommendations, and assistance.

If you can tolerate B-flat, I just saw where WWBW has a new B-stock Allora 186 for $1699.