??

[quinterbourne]

Now that I think about it, when I took solfege in the US, I don't remember learning flats. Is there a minor third = ma? A minor seventh = tay? a minor tonic = day ??? a minor sixth = lay???

ma, or may, is how you may think of pronoucing flat scale degree 3 - but it is, to my knowledge, written as "me"

Same applies to flat seventh (tay) being written as "te", and flat sixth (lay) being written as "le".

Di = sharp degree 1
Ra = flat degree 2
Ri = sharp degree 2
Me = flat degree 3
Fi = sharp degree 4
Sa = flat degree 5
Si = sharp degree 5
Le = flat degree 6
Li = sharp degree 6
Te = flat degree 7

[corbasse]

Si is also used sometimes instead of Ti.
In these cases I often find myself struggling to play the requested B instead of the C(Do).
Doh .

That's strange - since the syllable Si is Sol yp a step - so in C major Si would be A# - thus a step lower than Ti (B). I do acknowledge this as being the way it is done in Italy.

As well as Portugal, Spain, France, parts of Switzerland, Belgium, Luxemburg, Morocco, Rumania, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Mexico, Colombia, Bolivia, Equador, Venezuela, Uruguay, Paraguay, Guyana, Mozambique, Congo, Rwanda, Angola, Côte d'Ivoire, and probably a lot more places I forgot.

Si as the name for B is the norm in a very, very, very large part of the world. Ti is only used for B in the Sound Of Music and in the for the most part U.S. exculsive movable Do system.

[quinterbourne]

Here it is... in a format everyone will recognize!

http://www.freewebs.com/stratfordbrass/ ... pander.htm

[windshieldbug]

Di = sharp degree 1
Ra = flat degree 2
Ri = sharp degree 2
Me = flat degree 3
Fi = sharp degree 4
Sa = flat degree 5
Si = sharp degree 5
Le = flat degree 6
Li = sharp degree 6
Te = flat degree 7

Thank you! I recall those at all! I hate it when you learn something useful on TubeNet!

[quinterbourne]

As well as Portugal, Spain, France, parts of Switzerland, Belgium, Luxemburg, Morocco, Rumania, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Mexico, Colombia, Bolivia, Equador, Venezuela, Uruguay, Paraguay, Guyana, Mozambique, Congo, Rwanda, Angola, Côte d'Ivoire, and probably a lot more places I forgot.

Si as the name for B is the norm in a very, very, very large part of the world. Ti is only used for B in the Sound Of Music and in the for the most part U.S. exculsive movable Do system.

Very interesting!

So, in this system where they use Si to represent the leading tone... are there ever any altered syllables (inflections) for altered pitches? (for example me/may [not to be confused with mi] to represent the lowered third in a minor scale).

If they do use inflections... what syllable would they use for a raised Sol?

[corbasse]

Very interesting!

So, in this system where they use Si to represent the leading tone... are there ever any altered syllables (inflections) for altered pitches? (for example me/may [not to be confused with mi] to represent the lowered third in a minor scale).

If they do use inflections... what syllable would they use for a raised Sol?

Here's the main confusion in this discussion. Unlike in movable Do, this system is about the actual name of the note andliterally thanslates as Do=C, Re=D etc.
Si is not used for a leading tone. Si is simply the name for the note we (you) call B, regardless of what key or even what tonal system (if any) you're in. Any blob in the middle of the staff in treble clef is called a Si.
Sharps and flats are added the same way you English speakers do when talking about pitch. G sharp becomes Sol dièse /Sol sostenido (the word for sharp of flat depending on which language you speak)

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Here's the main confusion in this discussion. Unlike in movable Do, this system is about the actual name of the note and literally thanslates as Do=C, Re=D etc.
Si is not used for a leading tone. Si is simply the name for the note we (you) call B, regardless of what key or even what tonal system (if any) you're in. Any blob in the middle of the staff in treble clef is called a Si.
Sharps and flats are added the same way you English speakers do when talking about pitch. G sharp becomes Sol dièse /Sol sostenido (the word for sharp of flat depending on which language you speak)

I have to admit that I have always been a little foggy in my understanding of how fixed Do is used. I think I may be getting it, though.....

It seems to me as if we are really talking apples, and oranges, when comparing fixed, and movable Do.

It seems, based on the discussion, that fixed Do is not really a "system" designed to "teach" intervalic relationships per se, but rather, it is just a different way of naming the notes. Thus: singing "Do, Re, Mi, Fa, ...etc.", is the same as someone else just singing pitches by the note names "C---, D---, E---, F---, ...etc. That is all.

The movable Do system, on the other hand, seems to be an attempt to codify the tonal relationships, in a way that can be "easily" taught to a student.

The two systems seem to have very different objectives.

Am I goofy about all of this?

Now, I realize that fixed Do has been taught for thousands of years, but I am really curious about exactly how students of fixed Do, are taught to hear the chromatic alterations of the scale. What system does a teacher employ to get their students to hear those chromatic changes?

Does anybody here actully teach fixed Do solfege???

[windshieldbug]

It gets weirder; can you have transpositions in a Fixed Do (like treble clef), or is everything called what it is and you learn to compensate (like bass clef). Can you have alto clef, or is that just Movable Do with a squiggly clef symbol?

[corbasse]

I have to admit that I have always been a little foggy in my understanding of how fixed Do is used. I think I may be getting it, though.....

: singing "Do, Re, Mi, Fa, ...etc.", is the same as someone else just singing pitches by the note names "C---, D---, E---, F---, ...etc. That is all.

Yup, you got it completely.

I don't know if there is a real problem in/secret of teaching fixed Do users chromatic alterations. I always was hopeless at solfege and got through the course in Amsterdam with the lowest grade you could get and pass... Anyway, we used movable La over there

I do know that in countries where they use fixed Do solfege training starts at a very early age and is drilled to perfection. In the room next to where I work I hear classes of 9-12 year olds doing 1 1/2 hour sessions of singing all kinds of stuff on note names every week. They start simple (It was chrismas songs last week ) and end at quite advanced stuff I'd have difficulty with sightreading. (and I have a music degree)
If you do the advanced course in the conservatories you have to sightread, on notenames, atonal solfeges moving through seven different clefs. I've never heard complaints that the subtleties of chromatism couldn't be conveyed, so it probably isn't a problem.

[corbasse]

It gets weirder; can you have transpositions in a Fixed Do (like treble clef), or is everything called what it is and you learn to compensate (like bass clef). Can you have alto clef, or is that just Movable Do with a squiggly clef symbol?

They learn all clefs by the time transposition comes into view, so transposition is treated as if it were a different clef. French horn in Eb: bass clef. Horn in D: alto clef. Horn in F: C clef on the second line. (Don't know what you call that. mezzo-bassissimo clef?)
Also confusing: Italian french horn players talk in absolute pitch, bur most of us north-westeners talk in F. Then when you transpose, some people keep talking in F while others use the name as written.... Great material to completly drive the conductor mad

[Kevin Hendrick]

... Horn in F: C clef on the second line. (Don't know what you call that. mezzo-bassissimo clef?)

C clef on the next-to-bottom line is mezzo-soprano clef, on the bottom line is soprano clef, and on the top line is baritone clef. If you don't mind using leger lines, treble clef is the first one below the staff, and bass clef is the first one above the staff ...

[Lew]

I always thought it was this "Doh" method:

[windshieldbug]

C clef on the next-to-bottom line is mezzo-soprano clef, on the bottom line is soprano clef, and on the top line is baritone clef. If you don't mind using leger lines, treble clef is the first one below the staff, and bass clef is the first one above the staff ...

So what is mezzo-alto clef? and counter-bass clef?

[Kevin Hendrick]

C clef on the next-to-bottom line is mezzo-soprano clef, on the bottom line is soprano clef, and on the top line is baritone clef. If you don't mind using leger lines, treble clef is the first one below the staff, and bass clef is the first one above the staff ...

So what is mezzo-alto clef? and counter-bass clef?

My best guess on mezzo-alto clef would be second space from the bottom (between mezzo-soprano and alto). Counter-bass clef? Probably three leger lines above the staff (of course, if you get a good deal on it, it'd be bargain-counter-bass clef) ...

[windshieldbug]

Counter-bass clef? Probably three leger lines above the staff (of course, if you get a good deal on it, it'd be bargain-counter-bass clef)

No, that'd be contra-bass clef, and you'd have to fight Ollie North for Do...

[corbasse]

Eh, so I tried, and admitted I couldn't spell it. Don't worry, I won't bother in the future.

But please, do keep trying. You have to understand it's difficult for us at times to get these phonetic writings. Did you understand Sjra's reply to me?

zenk joe verrie verrie mats en 1 merrie krismas doed

That's English. Didn't understand? That's because it's written in Dutch phonetics. The effect the other way around is often just as confusing for us...

[Kevin Hendrick]

... that'd be contra-bass clef, and you'd have to fight Ollie North for Do...

That would seem to be contra-indicated ("what, mi worry?") ...

[windshieldbug]

That would seem to be contra-indicated ("what, mi worry?") ...

That'd be a real I re-nian scandal if you did!

[Kevin Hendrick]

That would seem to be contra-indicated ("what, mi worry?") ...

That'd be a real I re-nian scandal if you did!

Now how did I missile that before? Just not my cup of ti, I guess ...