Avant Rock

[kegmcnabb]

Well, having inflamed some passionate debate on American Experimentalism on one of the other boards here I figure I might as well continue a related question here.

What is some Popular/rock music that you listen to that incorporates elements of of the avant garde?

Specifically these elements might include music concrete (found sounds and sound effects), aleatoric (chance) elements, use of noise, non-melodic synth elements, extended techniques, etc.

I am writing a paper for my Master's concerning this and any suggestions of where to look are appreciated.

Obvious examples are Revolution 9 (Beatles), much early Mother's of Invention, even Chicago (Free Form Guitar off of CTA). What are some others? I am primaily interested in the rock era between 1960 and 1980 but precursors and followers are appreciated as well. Help me out. I look forward to your input.

However, I am not really looking for aesthetic judgement. If you think avant garde concepts and elements are crap (and many do), then start a thread entitled "Avant Garde = Hammered Dog Sh*t" and I am sure we can all participate in that discussion , but for this thread I would prefer simple examples.

Thanks!

[Chuck Jackson]

Cool post. I am partial to Velvet Underground, I think they still make a great statement after 30 some odd years. I really like everything Brian Eno has done. Bill Laswell, Adrian Belew, and oddly enough, Peter Gabriel (maybe a little too mainstream for this particualr discussion) have their respective places in my cd player. Experimental/ Avante Gard rock has been sorely overlooked because it doesn't make anyone money.

Chuck

[ai698]

Other groups, hum, let's think... How about-

[kegmcnabb]

Other groups, hum, let's think... How about-

Well, shameless self-promotion aside, I think you will find the Skumbaag's work to fall well outside of the 1960-80 target range. Besides, the bassist is an *sshole!

Here's some names that might stir up some responses or memories...

Can
Faust
Captain Beefheart
Mallard
Red Krayola
Magma

Yeah, some of it is pretty freakin' bad, but again, I am not interested in aesthetic judgement at this point...just examples.

[SplatterTone]

This Rolling Stones album has a few items on it that might be of interest.

http://tinyurl.com/dzgvf

[kegmcnabb]

This Rolling Stones album has a few items on it that might be of interest.

http://tinyurl.com/dzgvf

SplatterTone,
Can you give a couple of specific examples from the LP/CD?

Thanks

[SplatterTone]

This was the album they did around the time there a small fad of doing "creative" (so-called) stuff like this in albums. I think the trend was to scatter chunks of stuff throughout the album (which they did); but cut #5 is rather heavily laden with this stuff. The "avant garde" stuff on this album is pretty much contrived and gratuitous (as I'm sure it was on plenty of other examples from this period).

I'm thinking Pink Floyd's Ummagumma might be worth investigating, but I've not listened to it for a while. Their Atom Heart Mother suite has some vocal parts (or sounds) that could be called non-traditional, and is (I think) worth listening to even if you're not doing research. As far as I know, it is truly unique in the pop/rock world.

Then there is the "love scene" in Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love; but I suspect you already have that one pegged.

Would Edgar Winters' Frankenstein qualify?

"non-melodic synth element": The famous ending of "Karn Evil 9: 3rd Impression" on Emerson, Lake, and Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery -- which also has the section with the the bridge computer speaking.

Higher and Higher from The Moody Blues' To Our Childrens Childrens Children starts out sound effecty (what I suppose is a representation of "10 billion butterfly sneezes"). The Moody Blues, in general, often threw in little tidbits of sound on an album; some of them worked, some of them didn't.

I'm not sure if The Alan Parsons Project Tales of Mystery and Imagination meets your definition, but it was (and I think, still is) unique.

I Am the Sea from The Who's Quadrophenia (a pop/rock masterpiece) uses sea (surprise!) and rain sounds.

Somewhere in the middle of Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells, you have the caveman troglodyte section.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know. I think there was plenty of "psychedelic" music running around at that time, but I can't tell you much about that.

[SplatterTone]

Oh yeah! (slap forehead) How could I have forgotten Keith Emerson's Toccata on Brain Salad Surgery?! Most definitely one you need to listen to.

[SplatterTone]

There might be a trend from the weird use of this stuff in the 60's -- because it was new and served as a useful gimmick at the time -- to more "artistic" (subject to one's intrepretation, of course) use later in the 70's.

[SplatterTone]

Another one: Question from The Moody Blues' Question of Balance album.

[SplatterTone]

Keepin' 'em coming here: I'm listening to it now (Boy, this stuff is good!). To Our Childrens Childrens Children: in addition to Higher and Higher, you have cut #6 "Beyond" which is an instrumental piece interspersed with sound effect stuff.

[SplatterTone]

How about Theme from Dr. Who? Does that count?

[SplatterTone]

OK, I looked through the vinyl to see what turns up:

Autobahn from the group Kraftwerk.
http://tinyurl.com/aw9vb
You definitely need to include this album. Although I thought it was crap, it had its fans. I think the only reason I have a copy is because I got it from KMOD (I think ... back when FM radio rock was a new thing and not so structured, and you might have late night DJ who sounded like he was buzzed half way out of his head ... and not just faking it).

I saw this vinyl album in the stack.
http://tinyurl.com/7derx
I can't remember if it has any of what you are looking for on it. I think it was at least a little different for its time, but it has probably been at least 30 years since I last listened to it. The only thing I can remember is that I didn't care much for it.

It might be that if you start following what these albums link to on Amazon, you'll start to build up a collection of good samples.

[SplatterTone]

See what you think about D. O. A. on this album. Unfortunately, the sound sample doesn't give you much to go on. This wasn't my kind of music, so I can't tell you much about it. I just vaguely remember it.
http://tinyurl.com/anwcg

[kegmcnabb]

Holy Cow SplatterTone, it appears I have sent you on a journey through your old vinyl.

Thanks for all the suggestions...some I knew of and some I didn't. Most of these will fit in the section of my paper dealing with avant garde in the mainstream (as most of the groups you cited were (relatively) mainstream but still making use interesting techniques such as found sounds, reverse tape, etc. Great help....Thanks!

What I need to find more of are examples that veer far from the mainstream...music marketed to a rock audience but which utilizes avant garde techniques to a far greater degree. I will give some example in hopes of stimulating memory cells in my fellow TubeNetters.

Pere Ubu, in particular, their early synthesist, who never once played a melody...using the synth to bloop and burble away during each piece. Synthesizer for pure electronic sound.

Early Zappa/Mothers. Layering of time sigs and melodic lines a la Ives. Blocks of sound a la Varese. Aleatoric sections a la Cage. In the piece Approximate the rhythms are written out but note choice is left to performer. The superimposition of solo tracks upon unrelated backing tracks.

Anybody using tape loops and sound collage techniques a la Revolution 9. Jerry Garcia had some on his solo albums and they tend to appear all over during the late 60's early 70's.

Other bands The Muffins (not Martha and the...), Henry Cow, Fred Frith, early Residents and the entire Ralph Records crowd. John Cale of the VU recorded with composer Terry Riley and Philip Glass produced two albums of rock by the group Polyrock.

Stimulate any memories, ideas or suggestions?

[windshieldbug]

Can't think of any of hand, but were any rockers doing "conceptual music"? ("push an upright piano into the wall. Continue pushing. If the piano goes the the wall, continue pushing it until it contacts the next object in turn"). Boy, do I miss having composition lessons in the '70s...

[Dan Schultz]

Used to smoke a bit and listen to this guy in the late 60's.

http://csunix1.lvc.edu/~snyder/em/varese.html

Zappa even liked him

[TMurphy]

I was definitely going to suggest ELP....specifically Toccata, which SplatterTone mentioned (which was actually Emerson's arrangement of the Ginestera piece).

How about also "Welcome to the Machine" from Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" album...come to think of it...all parts of "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" might fit your needs well, as would many of the effects included on Dark Side of the Moon and the Wall.

I know this all falls into the realm of "Main Stream," but I saw no mention of some of this stuff yet.

[ai698]

But what happens if you listen to all these albums backwards?

[SplatterTone]

But what happens if you listen to all these albums backwards?

With the Kraftwerk album, I don't think you would notice anything.

Now, Kraftwerk is exactly the kind of "music" Dieter (Mike Myers) from the Saturday Night Live "Sprockets" skits would love.