Why no 5-valve euphoniums?

[Bob Mosso]

Twenty years ago, Yamaha sold an aftermarket dependent 5th rotary thumb valve (replacement for the 4th slide).

I heard about this once before. I'd love to see a picture. What would it cost to have something like this custom made?

[UDELBR]

Consider the Couesnon C "french" tubas with 5 and 6 valves. Hard to make a real distinction between that and a euphonium.

[Highams]

My Highams 5v of 1891;

http://www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk/newhigh8.jpg

yes, you are correct, very free blowing, with the last two valves having bigger bores. But difficult fingering and still not quite in tune without a 6th. valve!

An alternative was the Besson Enharmonic that had 2 sets of slides similar to that of the full double French Horn. A short set on the back and longer ones (for lower notes) on the front, determined by use of the 3rd. valve.

http://www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk/enh3a.jpg

CB

[cjk]

Do saxhorns count???



http://www.courtois-paris.com/panneaubrasssax.html

[Shockwave]

I would really like a large bore front action euphonium with 4 pistons and a thumb rotary valve, just like a tuba. AND a large shank, none of that small or medium business. Then I could use small shank tuba and bass trombone mouthpieces ![/u]

It sounds like what you want is a tuba. Why reinvent the wheel?

-Eric

[Donn]

Consider the Couesnon C "french" tubas with 5 and 6 valves. Hard to make a real distinction between that and a euphonium.

Is that a challenge? Is there a real distinction between a bass trombone and an tenor? In which case is the physical difference greater?

[Charlie Goodman]

Is there really that much call for the notes down there where it'd be worth the extra tubing, expense, weight and effort?

[UDELBR]

Consider the Couesnon C "french" tubas with 5 and 6 valves. Hard to make a real distinction between that and a euphonium.

Is that a challenge? Is there a real distinction between a bass trombone and an tenor? In which case is the physical difference greater?

Er, obviously there's a distinction of two half steps. Aside from that, the differences are negligible: bore is almost identical, so your analogy of bass / tenor trombone isn't an accurate one.

[P.J.]

I would really like a large bore front action euphonium with 4 pistons and a thumb rotary valve, just like a tuba. AND a large shank, none of that small or medium business. Then I could use small shank tuba and bass trombone mouthpieces ![/u]

???

I can't understand whay anybody would want a front action or five valve tuba...let alone euphonium.

A nice compensating horn to keep fingers standard in the low register is fine.

Also, why wouldn't you want the valves on top so gravity works with the horn instead of increasing friction (like it will on a front action horn)?

[P.J.]

P.J. you must be another Britain, as all the rest of the World think front valves better

I've spent my time

I have always wondered about the extra friction on front piston valves as the 4th valve on 3+1 tubas never seems to move as smooth as the other three.

I don't think the friction on the 4th valve of a 3+1 is as great as one might think, because it is still only about 30-35 deg front vertical (If I remember any trigonometry correctly that still makes it about half the friction of a horizontal valve..but this could still be somewhat significant). Then again some of this depends on at what angle one tilt's their horn or if they keep it perfectly upright)

[Posaune2]

I have heard of that, but did not know that it was thumb operated.
Does anyone have a picture?

Here is my horn:
http://cecmusic.com/Euph/Euph5.html

[Dan Satterwhite]

While reading a article (from a link on here) about cimbassos, it said that an American style baritone is a good instrument to cover cimbasso parts.
A fellow in a band that I played in bought a 4 front valve Conn baritone with the removeable front bell off of Ebay for $700. Add a 5th valve for the low register, and you get an $1000 "American cimbasso!"

a bell-front American-style "baritone" is about the LAST instrument I would choose to play a cimbasso part.

[Donn]

Aside from that, the differences are negligible: bore is almost identical, so your analogy of bass / tenor trombone isn't an accurate one.

Wichita Band says their French C saxhorn has a .615 bore. That's 6-8% larger than euphoniums like YEP321, Sovereign etc. Maybe it doesn't look like much, but Bach 50 is only 3% larger than 42.

[quinterbourne]

Consider the Couesnon C "french" tubas with 5 and 6 valves. Hard to make a real distinction between that and a euphonium.

Is that a challenge? Is there a real distinction between a bass trombone and an tenor? In which case is the physical difference greater?

Er, obviously there's a distinction of two half steps. Aside from that, the differences are negligible: bore is almost identical, so your analogy of bass / tenor trombone isn't an accurate one.

You must be associating the double trigger bass trombone (many of these are considered to be contrabass trombones) with the two half step distinction. Single trigger (F attachment only) bass trombones do exist. My Yamaha YBL-321 has only the F attachment and it is considered a bass trombone.

I think that the distinctions: euphonium vs tenor tuba vs french tuba, trombone vs bass trombone and 3/4 vs 4/4 vs 5/4 vs 6/4 - are just terms assigned to the instruments by the manufacturer. I'm sure if you look really hard and find the smallest bass trombone and the largest tenor trombone, you may find the largest tenor to be larger than the smallest bass. This is just the same as finding Rudy Meinl 4/4 as big as most other 5/4's.

There aren't any official measurements that state when a tenor trombone becomes a bass trombone, in the same way between 4/4 and 5/4 tubas. I think each person decides their own distinction of what constitutes a bass trombone vs tenor trombone. I think that tenor trombone have 8-9 inch bells and may be large/small bore and may or may not have the F attachment. I believe bass trombones have 9-11 inch bells, are large bore and always have the F attachment, sometime have double triggers.

[quinterbourne]

I would really like a large bore front action euphonium with 4 pistons and a thumb rotary valve, just like a tuba. AND a large shank, none of that small or medium business. Then I could use small shank tuba and bass trombone mouthpieces ![/u]

It sounds like what you want is a tuba. Why reinvent the wheel?

-Eric

I agree, if you want a euphonium you need to always be thinking euphonium, not tuba. If you think tuba you may end up sounding like a tuba when you play euphonium.

I remember trying to play bass trombone with a tuba mouthpiece (cuz it fit). Well, it sounded kinda cool. I couldn't play very high, but I sure could play low. However, I did not sound like a bass trombone, I sounded like a tuba. I could never take it out to a rehearsal or performance like that. When you go to play bass trombone for someone... they expect exactly that - a bass trombone.

[UDELBR]

Wichita Band says their French C saxhorn has a .615 bore. That's 6-8% larger than euphoniums like YEP321, Sovereign etc. Maybe it doesn't look like much, but Bach 50 is only 3% larger than 42.

My Couesnon french C (6 valves) is .575, so right between the Yamaha and Besson euphoniums.

So tell me again: what makes a Couesnon C french different than a euphonium (aside from being in C, and having a whole bunch of valves)?

[Posaune2]

Wichita Band says their French C saxhorn has a .615 bore. That's 6-8% larger than euphoniums like YEP321, Sovereign etc. Maybe it doesn't look like much, but Bach 50 is only 3% larger than 42.

My Couesnon french C (6 valves) is .575, so right between the Yamaha and Besson euphoniums.

So tell me again: what makes a Couesnon C french different than a euphonium (aside from being in C, and having a whole bunch of valves)?

All this discussion of terminology brings me to my tongue in cheek reply for all the times I get asked:

What is That Thing?!!

In America, it’s a Baritone Horn, unless it’s expensive, or has two bells, in which case its a Euphonium.

In England, it’s a Euphonium, except in Gustav Holst’s Planets, in which case its a Tenor Tuba.

In Austria, but only in Mahler’s 7th, it’s a Tenor Horn.

In France, its a tuba, but only for one movement of Ravel’s Pictures at an Exhibition, and only if the real tuba player doesn’t want to try it on his regular horn.

In Italy, it might be a Bucine in The Pines of Rome, but here we usually just play those parts on trombone.

In Germany, its a Tenor Tuba, except in Richard Wagner’s Ring Cycle, in which case a tenor tuba is some left handed contraption played by a French Horn player. (Who is probably not French)

In Richard Strauss, its a tenor tuba, but only after the left handed Tenor Tuba players tried the parts and crashed and burned.

In this week’s paycheck, its a 50% bonus.

In pawn shops, its a planter.

[P.J.]

- Four inline front-action standard pistons and a 5th rotor would (once things were "set up" for production) probably lower the price of a professional-quality euphonium by at least $1000. [/quote]

1000 bones? That could be a very important reason.

- Finally, gravity is not a positive factor to be considered here. Front-action pistons are more gravity-neutral than are top-action. Pistons not only move downward...They must also eventually return to their original positions - and do so just as fast as when they moved with gravity.

Agreed, pistons won't be affected by gravity much either way. Also, (I think) as the piston technology increases (eg the "valve" for trombone) They can not only get faster, but also have a straighter flow of air.

All-in-all...I think (If I am paraphrasing correctly) what you said makes sense. That is...do what feels most comfortable for you.

[Chuck(G)]

I've found it more than a little incredible to hear the 3+1 euphonium players defending the configuration of their instrument by saying "The 4th (pinky) finger isn't as strong or fast as the other three".

Tell that to any piano, woodwind, string or tuba player!

[JTJ]

On this pinky thing. I play a 3+1 compensaing euphonium, and I play the 4th valve wih the pinky of my left hand. Works fine. Why? A slight disability involving an accident when I was a kid, which left my left hand compromised.

I would a love a Bloke euphonium (assuming it played as well as the best), because I find the traditional 3+1 configuration an ergonomic nightmare. Beyond just my particular issues with it, it is just awkward to hold and play.

John