Double Pedal B flat

[Quicksilvertuba]

I've tried to find out info in the old TubeNet about this, but I didnt really find what I was looking for.

On the album: Bobissimo! I believe I can hear Roger play a Double Pedal B flat on Track 15 "Encounters II". I know that note isn't written in, not because I have the piece, but because i haven't heard it on any other recording.

Anyways, my question is how does he do it? I have heard many things such as double tounging the exact wavelength to make the correct pitch, or hitting the back of the teeth to make the sound.

In my opinion, this is a very cool effect. Not that the note is ever used, but imagination is a very big part of playing the tuba or any instrument (Baadsvik's "Fnugg"), and it would be fun just to play with notes like this.

Thanks for any input and please correct me if i'm wrong about any of this.

[P.J.]

From a physics aspect, I am hesitant to believe this. The normal pedal BBb I think you are speaking of (2 octaves below the 2nd line on the bass clef staff) is the lowest real note the horn should be able to get out (without any valve combinations). It occurs when then horn produces half a wavelength...for a BBb bass that means the wavelength is about twice the length of the horn or about 32 ft. I can't see how the horn can produce a sound with a larger wavelength, unless...all five valves are also pushed down thus doubling the effective length of the horn.

[prototypedenNIS]

I'm able to hit double Pedal Bb on a compensating euph, on a good day. Involves playing a double Pedal Bnat and lipping.

[Anterux]

I cant do it on a tuba.

But I can do it on the euphonium. So, there must be a physics aspect that makes it possible!

I can do it in two different ways:

One, like prototypedenNIS said, playing a pedal BB and lipping it down to the double pedal BBb. This is not easy to tune, at least for me.

The other way, I play an open false tone, then I play it one octave lower also open. Then the double pedal comes out in tune with 4th valve. Or 1+3. This way is easier to tune providing that the false tones are easy to do with your euphonium.

Antero

[ThomasP]

Correct me if I'm wrong with any of this....

The human ear is able to detect sound frequencies from 16 vibrations a second to 20,000 vibrations a second.

A "double pedal C" or C0 is 16.35 Hz according to http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html Scientist can't all agree on the lowe ... or this...

[GC]

I used to be able to hit that note and below on a horn I once owned that had a pretty good amount of resistance. There's something about a bit of stuffiness that lets those really low notes [insert crude descriptive verb of your choice] out. Too much stuffiness, particularly with 4th valve combinations, can stop notes in that register from coming out at all.

Below the fundamental of the horn, you can simply lip the notes down without even needing valves, though valves can help. The notes don't really lock into the resonant pitches of the horn, so they don't have the best of tone, to say the least.

As for hearing the pitches that low, don't forget that you are hearing the harmonics and also feeling the note. If you start in the audible range and work your way down, you can still discern the pitches that you're playing even though the harmonics are the only part really audible.

As for the 20 Hz lower limit of hearing, this varies from person to person, and varies depending on the condition of your ears and age. Due to too damn much loud music over the years and a history of ear infections, I have irritating hearing losses at both ends of the spectrum.

[Anterux]

If the physics cant explain it, then something is wrong with the physics theory.

I can hit the double pedal Bb on a euphonium. It is not a loose note. There is resonance from the instrument.

I explain how in the previous post.

Antero.

[Quicksilvertuba]

I'm not sure about copyright laws and everything, but I would love to be able to link to a clip of this recording. If anyone else has the c.d. you can hear the note i'm talking about around 2:57 min. on track 15 of Bobissimo!

[Rick Denney]

I thought 20 Hz was as low as we could hear. Not saying you're wrong, but 20 seems to be the number that I remember. Below that we just hear a rhythm and not a real pitch.

And physically the double pedal shouldn't be possible. But if you push all the valves down and lip it, you could get it. It'd help to have five, and the fifth be like a major third instead of the more common whole step.

That isn't quite correct. All tuba sound has a wide range of overtones. Those overtones are spaced in intervals along the frequency spectrum equal to the fundamental. Thus, even if the fundamental itself is subsonic, the 16-Hz-spaced overtones will create an impression of a 16-Hz tone in the listener's ear. In fact, the fundamental is usually quite weak even at high power levels because our ears just aren't that sensitive to it.

My understanding is that some play the 16-Hz C in Encounters II using a flutter-tongue technique carefully timed. My rhythm brain definitely does not move that fast. I have no idea whether Bobo used this technique or not. I seem to recall Jay Bertolet describing the technique on the old Tubenet.

Rick "who thinks we depend on upper harmonics far more than we will admit" Denney

[ThomasP]

Speaking of Pipe Organs....

I was once told by an organist that even though there are 32' pipes, in order to really hear those tones, rather than feel then a 16' pipe is needed to be played with it. In turn the fundamental of the 16' pipe coupled with the 32' pipe make the Hz of the 32' pipe louder.

I don't know if that made much sense, but when it was explained to me it was very logical and made a lot of sense, and still does in my head.

[iiipopes]

It's called reinforcement of difference tones. Since an organ tone is not pure, but has its own overtones, when they line up with another pitch an octave higher, they will not only sound together, but the overtones will reinforce each other at a rate equal to the fundamental, thus strengthening it.

Some pipe organs, in buildings that don't have the space to put the real pipes, even have what is called a "resultant" 32' pitch. There are no 32' pipes in the lowest octave. Instead, for the lowest notes, there are two pipes, one at the octave above (and roughly half the length) and another at an octave and a fifth above (and roughly one third the length). When played together, they beat at a rate equal to the octave below. For example, if you want a 32' C at approximately 16.5 Hz, you have a pipe pitched at twice that, at 33 Hz, and another softer pipe pitched at 49.5 Hz, roughly the C and G above the fundamental. You will then hear a beat at 16.5 Hz, as every 2nd vibration of the 33 Hz pipe is reinforced by every 3rd vibration of the 49.5 Hz pipe, and in between tending to be cancelled out. This has been used to substitute where large pipes cannot be fitted in for at least 300 years. Since it is getting to the grey borderline area between hearing and feeling, the effect is quite remarkable and authentic sounding. In the summer of 1985 I was at summer school in Cambridge, and sang baritone in Great St. Mary's church choir. The last Sunday before the August holidays, we went up and sang evensong for the Bishop of Ely. The bass and tenor who were with me were good singers, and we had a service piece that ended on a chord with the bass, baritone and tenor having the tonic, dominant and octave together at the end. We were so in tune and homogenous in our timbre that we made our own difference tone that we could hear going down the nave and reflecting back at us! You would have thought the organ joined us for the last chord!

[me]

there was a very lengthy discussion about this very topic this past summer. i think in the end the consensus was that most people who "play" that note (in public) use a lip/tongue flutter. i think i remember hearing that roger bobo could do it for real or the "fake" way but said something along the lines of "you'd have to stick your head in my bell to hear it" (referring to the actual playing of the note) as for euphonium i have no idea about the double pedal. i know that most of my euph buddies can hit a double pedal and it makes me mad that i can't. that's the extent of my euph knowledge.

[Lew]

I can get down to that C pretty reliably on my Besson 983. I can sometimes get to the Bb below it on the same horn. I have never been able to get to anything below a low D on any of my other horns, includng a King 2341, King Bill Bell, Conn 28K, Distin BBb, Distin Eb, or Conn 40K. Then again I'm purely an amateur and don't work on it that much.

The difference is the musicality with which Maestro Bobo plays it in that recording. I will never have the dedication to be able to sound like that, but it's fun to listen to.

[Phil Dawson]

The double pedal tone is a playable note. I learned to play it by playing major scales going down by half steps from the pedal. An earlier poster was correct in that the note can't be played very loud. I play the note open and on a good day I can go a few pitches below the double pedal. The process of learning to go this low took me many years and is of questionable value. The thing that you do gain is a better command of the range above the double pedal. I find that a pedal G on my C horn is very usable and really expands the sound of a big G chord at the end of a piece. The range of the tuba in the right hands can be amazing with players that can hit notes above the C 2 octaves above middle C and also play the double pedal. All it takes is a bunch of practice. It can be done. For those of you who don't believe try more praactice and a positive attitude.

Phil
dblpedc@earthlink.net

[prototypedenNIS]

Just because you can't hear it, doesn't mean you didn't hit it.

I've got a sound sweep on my computer that can start lower than the JVC Kaboom I had it connected to can play, but you can feel vibrations which your entire body can pick up before your ears can. It would be possible to then control these vibrations by feel as opposed to by ear.

When you think about it, much playing is done by feel and not by ear.

I was looking for the mythbusters plausible sign but can't find it.

[Phil Dawson]

You CAN hear it (double pedal C) and quite clearly.
Phil

[TubaRay]

Ray Grim lands on that Bb and octave below the Bb below the staff all the time. Makes my ears tickle inside when he does it. A near spritual tingle. The floor quivers when he does it.
So how do you do it Ray? I can get to the C on my 3/4 Holton (so I'd suggest size doesn't matter too much here) but not the Bb.

Actually, Johnny, I can pretty readily get down to the pedal F, however the double pedal Bb is not so easy. When I am well warmed up, I can usually play the double pedal, but it is not a great sounding note, nor is it powerful. It makes my nose tickle because it seems my whole face is flapping.