Monty

lprince · Post by **lprince** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:56 pm

both Monty and his sousa are very cool

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:21 pm

May I recommend a rebuilt Conn 14k with a 24 inch bell, if you want a slightly smaller one, for indoors or a small ensemble, or a Conn 20k with the short action valves and the 26 inch bell if you are going to be mostly outside. If you must get a fiberglass one, get a pre-UMI King, as its smaller bore gives better intonation and projection, with no loss of bottom end.

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:48 pm

Look up Arnold Gottleib, he lives in the city. I sold him my 1935 H.N. White "King Brand" silver 3 V BBb a year or so ago. I think it is one of the best sousaphones made, has a top pull first valve slide and a 26" bell. He is a good guy and will help you out.

Chuck

ArnoldGottlieb · Post by **ArnoldGottlieb** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:13 am

I'll happily let you play it, but I wouldn't trade you for your Hirsbrunner. This thing kicks, although it weighs more than some flute players......
Peace. ASG

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:11 pm

Indeed, pre-UMI Kings of all vintages and models kick. For the most part, there are only two "real" kinds of sousaphones: pre-UMI Kings and pre-UMI Conns. They are kind of the "trumpet" and "cornet" of the sousaphone world. Kings (except for the "Monster models pre-WWII) have a .687 bore, a little bit more cylindrical tubing, a long lead pipe with the tuning slide between the mouthpiece and the valve block, with great projection. Conns have, usually, a .734 (also known as the old "#10") bore, a short lead pipe, a tuning slide after the valve block, and a "big" tone. It's personal preference. Everything else is either bad design, bad execution (one of Bessons' few failures) or a wanna-be to these two. You will find lots of discussions between the Conn "regular" and "short throw" valves - personal preference. Reynolds Contemporas are OK - Reynolds used to work for H N White, so it is no coincidence his sousaphones look like Kings, and in a pinch some parts can even interchange - he made them, or at least the valves! Of course, my apologies to those who like the spectacular Martin Mammoths, it's just that there are so few of them, and very few mere mortals like me have the breath to do them justice.

bloke - we're not going into helicons here.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:01 pm

iiipopes wrote:bloke - we're not going into helicons here.

OK, but in the context of Balkan music it's kind of weird not to. I don't know if the old American helicons are very much like their Czech relatives, though. Czech bores are somewhat larger, for one thing.

WilliamVance · Post by **WilliamVance** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:06 pm

iiipopes wrote:Indeed, pre-UMI Kings of all vintages and models kick. For the most part, there are only two "real" kinds of sousaphones: pre-UMI Kings and pre-UMI Conns. They are kind of the "trumpet" and "cornet" of the sousaphone world..

I totally agree. I have a 50's King 1250 that plays very sweetly even after taking a 50 year beating at Michigan State before I got it. For me the Kings fit better in a smaller ensemble. The 1940's Conn 20K I own is great as well and I love the short action valves. It is a very broad bass and is better suited for those large ensemble situations where you have several sousaphones. The Conn is also somewhat heavier and larger and that gets to my back faster unlike the King which I can play for hours.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:50 pm

Donn wrote:
iiipopes wrote:bloke - we're not going into helicons here.
OK, but in the context of Balkan music it's kind of weird not to. I don't know if the old American helicons are very much like their Czech relatives, though. Czech bores are somewhat larger, for one thing.

Indeed. The problem is that Cerveny is the only company I know of currently making a helicon, and it is a large bore. Finding an older helicon in any kind of shape and tolerable intonation is almost as rare as a Martin Mammoth.

The front-belled sousaphones were developed from American helicons, so most of them have the same general valve block characteristics as their helicon siblings from the same respective companies, especially Conn & King, who made helicons until well after WWI. The "original" sousaphone was made by J. W. Pepper with the bell up, so Sousa could get a more dispersed "tubesque" concert tone outdoors. These horns are now called "raincatchers," for obvious reasons. Others asked Conn to turn the bell forward so it could be heard from the back of a marching band.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:59 pm

iiipopes wrote:Indeed. The problem is that Cerveny is the only company I know of currently making a helicon, and it is a large bore.

Far from a problem, I think the sound they get may somewhat depend on the availability of these instruments. I'm thinking of for example Boban Markovic's band, or Fanfarra Ciocarlia's bass tuba.

I play one myself, so maybe I'm biased. The sound may not be as stable or pure as my Conn sousaphone, but it's loud and clear, a live, edgy sound that I don't think I hear from American style sousaphones. Nor presumably American style helicons, as you're saying.

ArnoldGottlieb · Post by **ArnoldGottlieb** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:26 pm

ArnoldGottlieb wrote:
I'll happily let you play it, but I wouldn't trade you for your Hirsbrunner. This thing kicks, although it weighs more than some flute players......
Peace. ASG

hahaha... yeah, well, I don't think I'd trade it for my Hirsh... then again maybe on some days! Besides, I'd need to get use to the BBb fingerings again. What's your non-sousaphone horn?
_

I've heard you play a couple of times, and the hirsbrunner is obviously your horn, when you play my king it will amaze you and maybe make you want to find one of your own. Luckily, until this post, nobody seems to want them and I'm not nearly interesting enought to make kids want to buy them, but my opinion is that they are under-valued, which may be due to their weight which is a lot.
My non sousaphone horn is a Perantucci PT20P and I have a VMI copy of an MW 32 that will soon be for sale. I could let these horns go for something else but I'm keeping the king. Yeah, the fingering thing is a pain sometimes but it becomes okay on gigs I play by ear. I mean if I didn't play X gigs a week on bass the fingerings would be no problem but the bass is where 97% of my money comes from. Not a complaint, just a music buisness fact that freelancing is better on bass than tuba. In fact I'd thought about only playing BBb tuba, but it hasn't happened yet. Anyway.
Peace. ASG

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:46 pm

Since the Cerveny helicon is such a different instrument from a tonal point of view, yes, I would enjoy hearing one to educate myself as to its tone and applications. I'm sure it is great, and pardon my suffering in the great American Midwest where we are still deprived of such diversity to appreciate first hand.

ArnoldGottlieb · Post by **ArnoldGottlieb** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:10 pm

Hey Arnold,
Well, if you get a scoop on any horns in town I shuld checout give me a yell. Sorry you had to suffer though my playing. Where the hell did you hear me play? Did I meet you already?

I will, we met a long time ago at a brass thingy in NYC, however I saw you play at the Jewish fest at South Street seaport, and maybe another time, but I'm not sure. Hey man, you can put up all the crazy posts you want but suffer is not anything I do when I hear you play. Maybe listen and try to learn something, or just sit back and enjoy some great playing. The horn I have is in it's winter home (my parents attic) but next time it's in the city I'll let you know.
My question to you, how do you play that Hirsbrunner without a strap? Looks not fun, any tips?
Peace. ASG

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:22 am

Check out this Buescher helicon:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-BUESCHER-HELIC ... dZViewItem

Frank Ortega · Post by **Frank Ortega** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:20 am

Ron,

If you're not happy with the 1940's King, look for a Martin Mammoth. They're hard to come by, but they are amazing! Very in tune. A little on the gigantic size, but I'd love to hear you pump out Bass lines on a monster like that.
Of course, you probably wont find one for the price I'm asking for the King!

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:26 pm

iiipopes wrote:yes, I would enjoy hearing one to educate myself as to its tone and applications.

The aforementioned Markovic Orkestar is a relatively painless step in that path to enlightenment. E.g., Grom Cocek This is the bass helicon, probaby in F, and from the picture I've seen I guess Sasha Alisanovic, one of the true stars of the tuba world, does not see the need for 4 valves. I didn't know you could even get one of those things with 3.

Other bands have a BBb contrabass helicon - Frank London, Kocani, Ciocarlia has both. The Czech BBb is big bored, like
near .800, but the difference doesn't seem as conspicuous to me.

ArnoldGottlieb · Post by **ArnoldGottlieb** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:54 pm

Other bands have a BBb contrabass helicon - Frank London, Kocani, Ciocarlia has both. The Czech BBb is big bored, like
near .800, but the difference doesn't seem as conspicuous to me.

Hey Donn,
You're speaking of my favorite music here, and I hope it becomes more of a topic of discussion on this board. However (and you can see my post above), your post jogged my memory to seeing the Frank London group and I'll be damned if the guy playing tuba wasn't kicking serious behind on a His(ch)brunner CC.
Peace. (really)
ASG

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:44 pm

If you want a great sousaphone at a great price here's one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NO-RESERVE-Roth-Rey ... dZViewItem

(I have no affiliation with this seller) Reynolds Contempora sousaphones are not often discussed, and not too many were made, but I have found them to be of very good quality and play great.

Monty · Post by **Monty** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:42 pm

Gee Snuff and Liz thanks for the nice words. I havent been online (been trying to round up a new leadpipe before Weds gig) And thats totally ok that you broke my horn snuff cause I hacked your website again (DOOPFF!!)
You know I like the sound of the helicon and almost got one but its not the sound I think I want- I like the punchiness of the small king- Im really hearing the amped sound- guess thats just me but also we are trying to do wedding band music so its a little different bass attack anyway. I also love the funk bass and like putting in the one drop feel when I can as well. Im just trying to learn that style so I can play with it a little.
and that horn aint old- its actually just from the 70s- its just been through lots of Mardi Grassess, trains and planes with shitty cases the New Orleans Penal System and on the back of a lot of Landscape trucks.Bless its little .687 heart.
That was a hell of a festival though- Ill be back.
We are also doing the Balkan Cafe on May 5th. And we want to get some of yall down here to the D and C for festivities..

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:39 pm

If you like the sound of the King, but can't find a sousaphone, you can also use one of the old 1240 or 1241 tubas: 3 valves or 4, upright or recording bell, they all have a similar projection due to the fact they all use the same .687 valve block and similar lead pipes.

Re the Reynolds Contempora, in the earliest days, H N White hired Reynolds away from York to design the upper brass and make valves while H N worked with Thomas King of the Sousa band on developing his trombone. Some of the parts actually interchange between Reynolds & King tubas and sousaphones!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:28 am

Then you could check out this helicon:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Helicon-Tuba-Antiqu ... dZViewItem

bloke: what do you think of this one, now that the thread does talk about helicons?

TubeNet

Monty

Sousas