Poll - Lubricants?

[Rick Denney]

I replied Hetmans, because that's what I use on most of my instruments.

But I use Alisyn on the Yamaha 621. When I started playing that tuba in outdoor gigs, I had problems with sticky valves. Dirt was NOT the problem, but temperature sensitivity was. Alisyn was the only oil that worked.

To me, a proper cleaning of a piston valve requires (in addition to scrubbing the piston including the ports) removing the bottom cap and the spring, and then scrubbing out the casing with a soft brush before reassembly with fresh oil. Chuck, if you do that every day, my hat's off to you. I do that about once a month. But I pull the pistons and oil them every day or two.

I also tried BiNaK on my York Master (which has positively dreamy valves), and it worked well--for a while. If you let the horn sit a while, though, it will get gummy and the gumminess cannot be removed by any means known to man other than a thorough cleaning with solvent. That was the end of my experiment. (It was gummy right from the start on the Yamaha--something about the Monel, I think).

Rick "who will be stocking up on a few more bottles of Hetmans at the Army conference" Denney

[Rick F]

(It (BiNak) was gummy right from the start on the Yamaha--something about the Monel, I think).

I used BiNak 395 on my Yamaha 641 euph for about a month. Worked great for awhile, but it was just too fussy. 'BiNak doesn't play well with others' (meaning slide grease to be exact). I had to use the BiNak oil on my slides too. Didn't like that much. I've been using Hetman's Lite Piston oil for almost two years now. No complaints.

Except... the new bottle the oil now comes in. I don't care much for the child-proof-eye-dropper bottle. It takes 2 hands to use. I spoke with Joe Hetman (chief cook, bottle washer, etc.) who told me they're looking for another supplier of 'child-proof' bottles which will offer the standard nozzle. Hetman was forced by the govt. to start using child-proof packaging since their oil is synthetic. Joe went on to say that all the other synthetic valve oils still being shipped with the standard bottle are in violation.

[WoodSheddin]

Rick "who will be stocking up on a few more bottles of Hetmans at the Army conference" Denney

Woodwind and Brasswind sells Hetman by the dozen and gives a discount when bought in such quantities.

[vmi5198]

I personally do not understand why people insist on putting garbage into their horns. Why do people use oils which are already contaminated?

Look, if your oil has a scent - it is contaminated! If it is not perfectly clear - it is contaminated! Think of it this way. Oil has 2 uses: 1) It lubricates, and 2) it absorbes dirt. If you buy oil that is not clean to begin with, it will not absorb nearly as much as clean oil would.

Oil needs to be odorless, and colorless. It needs to be so clean that you could drink it yourself and not get sick! If you get sick, so will your horn! Oil companies put contaminants into their oils on purpose to please the customer with such things as nice scents, or cool colors.

I use pharmicudial grade oil for my horns: N45 for the valves, and N650 for the slides. With oils such as these, they actually clean your horn while you use it! Isn't that the way it should be?

[vmi5198]

I am not familiar with any "fish" oil.

My uncle is a retired foremen from Petro Canada Lubricants division. He is a cornet player in the local Slavation Army Band. When he was at work, he took about a dozen different kinds of oils (Al Cass, Holton, 5 Star, Blue Juice, etc.) to the laboratory to be analysed. He found that there were unbelievabe amounts of contaniments in certain oils, and that these should never be used in any instrument.

So the alternative was to make his own oil with no contaminants at all. It was a totally pure oil, being 99.99% phamiceudical grade oil, with a Neutral PH balance, hence the "N". 45 for the valves is just the consistancy of thickness, where 650 is much thicker for slides. So, my oils are N45 and N650.

I had about 2 litres of each while I was in university. I used to sell it for $5 a bottle. I would tell people to empty what they had and I would refill it with some good stuff. It was great!

Now I only have about 1 litre, and I cannot get anymore. So I will ration it as much as possible.

The problem is that people have a misguided view as to what oil should look like. Pure oil is always colorless. When people get an oil change and put new oil in their cars, it comes out like a tanned color. The factories have to put dye in the oil to make it "look like oil". If it was colorless, people would not buy it! In this regard, they are contaminating their own oils just to convince the comsumer that it is real oil! Strange!

I know readers by now are saying, "well, what about the rest of us?" Just be sure to buy oil that is odourless and colorless. That in itself is a step in the right direction.

[JayW]

just a thought for those of you who use Hetmans......i fins buying the LARGE bottle (not sure the size, but it refills the standard bottle several times over) is the way to go. I just pop the applicator top off...fill'er up and pop it back on. And it is MUCH cheaper that way. i remember asking Lee Stofer at the ABTEC why this was and he had no idea either.

[Rick Denney]

So the alternative was to make his own oil with no contaminants at all.

This confuses me. I'm unfamiliar with the details of the chemistry, but all oils are hydrocarbons. The question is how they are constructed. Some are refined from petroleum, other are refined from organic sources (plant or animal), and still other are synthesized. Each has its own characteristics. Thus, it doesn't seem to me that "purity" is a single endpoint, but rather than any given oil can either be pure or not. There are some pure oils I would not want in the instrument, and others that aren't a problem. Many of them, while pure, might still be poisonous, I would expect.

Petroleum-based oil that smells usually means that there are still volatile fractions that have not been refined out--they evaporate (which is why they are volatile) and smell when they do so. Once evaporated, they aren't there in the oil any more, so I don't understand how a smell is necessarily a sign of oils that will do lasting damage.

Whether we can swallow it or not has nothing to do with purity, it seems to me. I swallow olive oil all the time, yet when it gets hot its impurities create varnishes and other undersireable by-products. I don't think I'd want to swallow any refined petroleum product, however pure.

And if oils are applied in appropriate intervals (i.e., every day), then they are constantly being flushed and replaced. Instruments that are frequently oiled don't seem to show signs of corrosion, buildup, or wear associate as do instrument infrequently oiled. Thus, I suspect the stuff in our saliva (which we also swallow all the time with no ill effects) seems to do a lot more damage than what is in any oil.

Rick "who thinks frequency is more important than formula" Denney

[Rick F]

For all those 'Hetman' fans out there, you might like to know that Hetman valve oil is now back to being shipped in the standard bottle. No more 'eye dropper'. Yea!

No longer this pkg...


But this one...


The bottle is still 2oz, but a bit taller. At least that's what we got last week in our shippment of 10 bottles for the whole section. We ordered from WWBW @ $3.99 / bottle

[Rick F]

Where can you get the large bottle?

Those images are not of the same scale. It's still a 2oz bottle like I stated -- but just not the 'eye dropper' bottle. We got our order from WWBW since they were running a sale. I think the sale is still on according to this link:

http://www.wwbw.com/search/?src=Hetman&x=20&y=16

[dmmorris]

Hetman's "Classic" on the old York and Conn piston valves
Hetman's "Rotary" on the B&S
Hetmans "Light Piston" #1 I think...on my son's Yamaha 642

[SplatterTone]

Whatever oil is cheap enough for your budget that you don't mind using a bunch of it. Another thread asked about chemical or ultrasonic cleaning. How about no cleaning at all. Look anywhere on the inside of my horn and all you see is clean brass. And it has never been cleaned ... except every time I play it.

And for the record: 75% / 25% Blue Juice / Viper oil combo. Before putting horn away: I blow it out with HVLP blower. Then about 10 - 12 drops oil per slide and about 8 drops down the lead pipe. Before and during playing, more drops down the lead pipe. If I'm in the mood I might dump in some lamp oil for good measure.

The rotors and linkage get Breakfree CLP. GOOOOD stuff.

[Chuck(G)]

The problem with most "oils" is that they're not stable.

Vegetable oils go rancid.

I've yet to see a bottle of oil (synthetic or otherwise) that will survive 6 months on a sunny windowsill without altering appearance and/or odor. (I've got a bottle of Binak that got that treatment that has the color of tea and has a definite unpleasant odor. Al Cass, Roche-Thomas and ultra pure lamp oil all flunk the windowsill test).

So, given that oil is going to break down, you might as well use lots of what's cheap and use it frequently.

Now, if someone had an oil with superior lubricating properties that wasn't degraded by moisture, substances in the saliva, air and bits of dirt and metal, they'd really have something.

Drop me a line when you find some.

[Tom]

I've been using La Tromba's "T2 Valve Oil Special" for around a month now and won't ever go back to anything else. I was turned on to it by a tuba pro around Christmas time. I've tried just about everything under the sun...Alysyn to Hetman to Zaja (and everything in between, mainstream and obscure) and this stuff is hands down the best. It has been the perfect viscosity for my MW "big valves" when are considered by many to be notoriously finicky. It's a little thicker than regular Hetman's and really seems to "coat" rather than "wet" the valves. Although I oil my valves everyday, the T2 performance lasts longer than Hetman's did by a long shot. For reference, the tubas in question are played between 2 and 8 hours daily, so they get a fair amount of use, in my opinion.

One of the other big pluses include a great bottle design. The bottle is slim (still a little over 2oz.), can be opened and closed with one hand, doesn't leak, and has a nozzle/nipple that is more like that of a "precision needle oiler" you might see a horn player using.

Another big plus (in my opinion) is that it doesn't create the yellowish residue that Hetman's did.

As for smell, it smells a little like Banana. I find it to be pretty easy to deal with. It doesn't have the "oil" smell a lot of valve oils have and it seems to get along well with whatever slide grease I happen to be using.

The only problem with this stuff is that there is only one place to get it in the U.S. (a VERY recent development...previously only available in Europe) and it's a little more expensive than most people are used to at about $7.50 a bottle in the U.S. The only reason I pay for it is because it actually works that well. I had concluded that valve oil was just about all the same until I used this stuff...it really is better for me.

You can get is from Jimmy Cara's "Trumpet Ideas" at http://www.bikyle.com/T2.asp

[Jedi Master]

.....Another big plus (in my opinion) is that it doesn't create the yellowish residue that Hetman's did.

Has anybody else experienced the "yellow residue" phenomenon from Hetman's? Any idea what causes it?

[JTJ]

I've never had any yellowish residue from Hetmant's, which I have been using for over a year on a Yamaha 642 and an 842 euphonium.

John

[ai698]

I still have 43 out of 45 ounces of my Ultra Pure lamp oil that I bought three years ago. Best stuff for my piston horns. I use Hetmans for my rotary valves.

[Tom]

.....Another big plus (in my opinion) is that it doesn't create the yellowish residue that Hetman's did.

Has anybody else experienced the "yellow residue" phenomenon from Hetman's? Any idea what causes it?

So you've had the same problem?

Don't quote me on this, but I beleive Lee Stofer said something about it a while back in another valve oil, lubes, etc. thread. Must not be a huge problem because he still sells it and lots of people still use it...

Edit:

Here's what Lee Stofer said a while back:

I have heard a few comments about yellow deposits, particularly from rotor-valve instrument owners. I have seen an occasional bit of yellow in the oil under the back caps, and I just wipe it out and apply a little more oil.

[Dan Schultz]

I thought I posted a comment on this subject a while back but it must have been in a different thread.

I keep four different blends of homebewed lubricant on the shelf in my shop. All are mixes of ultrapure lamp oil and fully 5W-30 synthetic motor oil.

1) Heavy... straight synthetic motor oil for use on rotor bearings and linkage mechanisms.
2) Medium... 50% synthetic motor oil and 50% lamp oil for use on woodwind pivot screws & pivot pins, and extremely worn piston valves.
3) Light... 10% synthetic motor oil and 90% lamp oil for most piston valves.
4) Ex-light... 5% synthetic motor oil and 95% lamp oil for extremely close fitting piston valves.

Yes... the synthetic oil and the lamp oil DO mix well. I've never had a problem with residues. And no.... I do not dump rotor oil down the leadpipe! Hetman's is good stuff and I use it from time-to-time on some of my personal horns... but for general use in the shop, the home-brewed oils save me a TON of money! If a customer wants something different, I'll be happy to use whatever he provides.

[josh wagner]

I'm using Musichem Pro-oil hybrid. it seems to be working very well on my meinl weston 2155. last a long time doesn't seem to evaporate as fast as the blue juice or the other kinds i've used. But i'm wanting to try some of the Super C peppermint.

[SplatterTone]

bloke "expecting to eventually die of some cause or another, but preferring a cause other than that of being eaten by a tiger "