For decades, the emperors have had no clothes.

[kegmcnabb]

Just because I really like this comic:

Funniest, most accurate, most apropos thing I have seen for weeks on TubeNet.

[tubafatness]

[Tuba Guy]

[sloan]

General: "90% of everything is crap"

Special: "99% of this thread is crap"

[Bob Kolada]

There's some funny pictures on this page!


Bob"save image as"Kolada

[TUBAD83]

Alcohol and cigarettes kill more people then pot, coke, heroin, speed, acid, lsd, crystal meth COMBINED. They both should be totally banned for good, right??

Lets stop demonizing pot and have an honest informed intelligent debate about decriminalization...now is the time.

JJ

[Todd S. Malicoate]

At the risk of repeating myself over a year later...

I propose we let bygones be bygones, since neither side has a chance in Hades of changing the other side's opinion.

Good thing none of us are in charge of making the laws.

[k001k47]

No.

[KevinMadden]

First, a chime on the music discussion.
Most modern music is crap from an emotional perspective. If you expect your music to convey and evoke deep emotional reactions (feelings of love, despair, rage, triumph etc.) chance music, serial music, twelve-tone music just won't do the job. If you care to appreciate a work, even for just a fleeting moment, for bucking the trend, being 'revolutionary' (for good or ill) or for attempting to bring about the first MAJOR change to music theory in centuries than you can 'get' a lot of the modern stuff. I don't care to listen to Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, or Cage but I do appreciate what they attempted. They did not fully realise what they were going for though IMO. I used to march in a drum and bugle corps. Corps music is often just the climaxes from great works excerpted, played loudly, and compressed into a 10 minute show. At 17 I found this to be the pinnacle of music. (wooooo this is exciting!) After completing a music degree (yes I have one of those kooleje dagreez) I realize how important hearing the big picture of a work of Mahler or Shostakovich is, how more fulfilling these climaxes are when you get the hour or so of build-up and tension. I feel that the ideas started by the second Viennese school and the minimalists can be adapted to evoke a similar gratifying response... sometime. Maybe I'll live to hear works like this, maybe I won't.

Regarding the side discussion on Marrywanna. I smoked weed quite heavily for about 3 years of school. I smoked opium, I drank heavily, I smoked tobacco regularly, I used LSD. I started working at a place with strict STRICT drug policies and have been illegal drug free for roughly 18 months. Were it legal would I do some of it again? sure, It's fun. In the same way drinking is fun. However, I never considered myself to have a drug problem. I've known people who have, and do. I find that the lives of the people addicted to illegal drugs (well weed at least, which does little to your physical health, even after prolonged use) are only made worse than those with addictions to legal drugs because of the drug's illegality Alcoholism runs very prevently in my family. My Grandfathers' alcoholism created serious problems for their children (my parents, aunts, and uncles) but their lives were not outright ruined. Those I know who have had their lives ruined by Marijuana use is generally because of run-ins with the law associated with that drug.

Those of you completely condemning the use of illegal drugs: legal status aside, do you drink alcohol to excess (even occasionally)? Do you need a cup of coffee in the morning to get your day started? Do you smoke a cigar in times of celebration? All these substances are drugs people. I feel that just about all substances should be legal. We have heinous poisons and toxins in our under-sink cabinets, drinking these could result in incredible highs, I'll never know because the side-effect is death. A person can ruin their life with Alcohol as easily as they can with weed, or LSD, or Cocaine, or Opium. I know my limits, I can hold my liquor. Some people's limits are clearly much lower, it is therefore that person's choice whether they wish to use (or possibly abuse) a particular substance. It is no more my place (or a government's place) to say someone can't smoke weed as it is to say everyone MUST smoke weed.

[Rick Denney]

I would only add that most accounts I've read of marijuana use not causing any real consequences (other than legal ones) are recounted by current or former users.

I submit that it is difficult to assess those effects by the person seeking to justify its use. Rationalizations are sometimes extreme, and even comical. How many times have you heard that a drunk driver is safer because he is "looser" in an accident? From my perspective as a non-user who has many acquaintances who are, those effects are plain to see. As plain as they are to non-user observers, they are usually stoutly denied by the users. For marijuana, I know people who are unmotivated to address life's daily responsibilities, remain depressed, disregard their obligation to set a good example for their kids, lose conviction when dealing with the problems their kids inevitably fall into, suffer ruined relationships, destructive accidents (often with innocent victims), and so on. No, not everyone suffers all these consequences, of course, but it's hard to know how life might have gone without it.

Alcoholics are the same, by the way, and I've known quite a few of those as well, closely enough to know what Al-Anon meetings are like. Casual coffee drinkers? Not so much.

Some can use these substances with no consequences. But many are grabbed by them. The statement "I can quit anytime" has become a standing joke--maybe cliche but everyone recognizes the thread of truth in the joke. Everyone, especially young'uns, assume they are in the former category, but observations of their behavior into later years suggests that they often assume incorrectly. It is a dangerous experiment by people unable to predict the consequences.

Rick "no stranger to rationalization" Denney

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Always interesting when Bloke stirs the pot.......(no pun intended)
Weed, booze, sounds like individual freedoms to me. As long as I have the freedom to not pay any money for the consequences, it's all good. If I do have to pay my government to take care of these people, and I had to choose one or the other, alcohol would be outlawed. Causes traffic accidents and serious long term mental and physical problems. Weed seems to make people hug each other. If someone is lazy, they're lazy with or without weed is the way I see it.
Peace.
A.

[SRanney]

No, not everyone suffers all these consequences, of course, but it's hard to know how life might have gone without it.

This is a key point in this argument. For many users of marijuana, there have not been any consequences and certainly may never be. Their argument that "well, it hasn't hurt me" may be accurate, but is not representative of the whole population of users. People who used and currently use marijuana will never know what their life would have been like had they not smoked pot. It may have been much better with a great many things accomplished much earlier in life. Certainly their lives would have been different even if in some unquantifiable way.

I don't advocate for the decriminalization of marijuana, the medicinal use of marijuana, nor do I advocate for people to experiment with illegal substances. What frustrates me is when people suggest that their lack of use is a morally superior position than those who use and that all users will suffer the same fate (e.g., unmotivation to address life's daily responsibilities, depression, ruined relationships, etc.). No doubt many users have made many poor life decisions. Some have hurt others, either physically, emotionally, or financially. As someone very close to addiction and alcoholism (close enough to know what the chip system is and where to find friends of Bill in at least 10 major cities (and many, many other small towns) around the country), I really don't think it's anybody's place to judge the illicit drug use of someone else. Hope and pray that they recognize what their actions are doing, but being judgemental is not going to get an addict away from their bong, off of their lines, to pull the needle out of their arm, or to put their bottle down.

Steven "a few 24 hours" Ranney

[TUBAD83]

No, not everyone suffers all these consequences, of course, but it's hard to know how life might have gone without it.

This is a key point in this argument. For many users of marijuana, there have not been any consequences and certainly may never be. Their argument that "well, it hasn't hurt me" may be accurate, but is not representative of the whole population of users. People who used and currently use marijuana will never know what their life would have been like had they not smoked pot. It may have been much better with a great many things accomplished much earlier in life. Certainly their lives would have been different even if in some unquantifiable way.

I would like to reply to both of these statements as a former marijuana smoker and current consumer of alcohol: Neither pot nor booze played any role in any major decision in my life and I say this with 100% certainty--I made them all with a clear head (even the BAD decisions). Use of both were strictly recreational and (for the most part) done in moderation. Any habit, whether its pot, booze, or hamburgers can have disastrous consequences when you let it get out of control. Is it really fair to ban a product based on the actions of others? Is the "War on Drugs" really working? Does it make any sense to continue it?

Its time to de-politicize our drug policies and honestly and rationally discuss and make changes...hopefully without having to wait for another generation to die out.

JJ

[Virtuoso]

I've always like hamburgers. I would quite often eat one or two, in celebration of some accomplishment or another. One day, however, my freezer broke, and there were seventeen pounds of ground beef about to go bad. So I said, what the heck, and started grilling. when it was all cooked, I began eating, bringing my plate over to the piano where I began recording some jazz improv. I kept eating and eating though...

Fifteen pounds down, I woke up the next morning with a pounding headache, so late for work that it was most prudent not to go in at all. I sat down and listened to my earlier recording, and it was AWFUL, the worst I had done.

Two weeks later, I was still eating hamburger, meeting someone on the corner at 7:03 each evening to replenish my supply. I had lost my job and no longer had a piano to improvise on....


Hamburgers are nice on occasion, but once you really start eating them it's a long dark road.

[jamsav]

hmmmm, In an effort to return this thread to its original purpose and away from the somewhat controversial debate about drugs and alcohol lets talk about jackass contemporary composers !! Speaking of Nehlybel, now there goes a composer who really understood his players !!! Sitting in front of him on Trittico , some 35 years ago when obviously he was still alive , and I was a mear child ( 17ish, AllState whatever) he stopped the band and began smashing his stand to the ground !! " Tubaaaas !!!! Zat eez not loudt enuff !!!!". Some ridiculous near pedal tone ( keep in mind , we're 3 maybe 4 kids with horns bigger than us ) , so , we hyperventilated and blew the old bastard off of the podium. He stopped the band again, " Tubaas !!! Zat eez nott goodt enuff !!!! "
I have been a non fan of any of his bs tonal crap ever since ......
Am I speaking ill of the dead ? Or simply his crapositions ?

[sloan]

hmmmm, In an effort to return this thread to its original purpose and away from the somewhat controversial debate about drugs and alcohol lets talk about jackass contemporary composers !! Speaking of Nehlybel, now there goes a composer who really understood his players !!! Sitting in front of him on Trittico , some 35 years ago when obviously he was still alive , and I was a mear child ( 17ish, AllState whatever) he stopped the band and began smashing his stand to the ground !! " Tubaaaas !!!! Zat eez not loudt enuff !!!!". Some ridiculous near pedal tone ( keep in mind , we're 3 maybe 4 kids with horns bigger than us ) , so , we hyperventilated and blew the old bastard off of the podium. He stopped the band again, " Tubaas !!! Zat eez nott goodt enuff !!!! "
I have been a non fan of any of his bs tonal crap ever since ......
Am I speaking ill of the dead ? Or simply his crapositions ?

I see no inconsistency here. When you played "good" it was not loud enough; when you played "loud" it was no longer good. This corresponds well with my past experiences with 17yo tuba players.

[kegmcnabb]

I see no inconsistency here. When you played "good" it was not loud enough; when you played "loud" it was no longer good. This corresponds well with my past experiences with 17yo tuba players.

[jamsav]

YES !!! thats my point exactly !!! This man, responsible for this piece of music, standing in front of 60 teenagers, has no idea of what we are, or are not capable of...his expecations were completely unreasonable...I see that alot in contemporary music...16 count D below the staff, hold it, hold it, holdit, turn blue, hold it, turn purple, now pop a staccato Bb above the staff( John Barnes Chance - Var. on a Korean Folk Song) ...ummmm I dont know, maybe I just cant play...

[TUBAD83]

YES !!! thats my point exactly !!! This man, responsible for this piece of music, standing in front of 60 teenagers, has no idea of what we are, or are not capable of...his expecations were completely unreasonable...I see that alot in contemporary music...16 count D below the staff, hold it, hold it, holdit, turn blue, hold it, turn purple, now pop a staccato Bb above the staff( John Barnes Chance - Var. on a Korean Folk Song) ...ummmm I dont know, maybe I just cant play...

This is precisely why in all 3 of the groups Im in, anything below pedal E is taken up an octave and anything above C above the staff is taken down an octave. A simple matter of exercising good judgment and being practical when the composer chooses not to do so (a variation on "somebody has to be the adult").

JJ

[The Jackson]

I have found that composing music myself has totally changed how I approach performing others' music. Whenever I write for an ensemble that I am not intimately familiar with, I know that there are most likely going to be performance problems. When I see what appears to be a trouble spot in a piece, I (honestly) just follow the "make it work" philosophy.

Jamsav: Like many others here, probably, I've played that Chance piece a few times. For that long Db in the second variation, we just work it out among the section to stagger breath. If I wrote that in my own piece of music, I would be a fool to expect every tuba player in the section to hold the entire note out. What I would want is that effect; I would want the effect of a 16-beat Db. I want that to come out of the section and by whatever means. If I am the only tuba player? I'd inspect the score, see who else has my part and work it out with them. Again, this is where I think the practical know-how that we train for as musicians comes into play.

As for the slur from the Db below to the Bb on top, that's just another thing for me to practice. I would call that a bit of a part writing stretch, but it's definitely not impossible and not unreasonable (in my opinion). Sometimes things are more unreasonable and may not even be practically possible, and that's where the "street smarts" comes in, I guess. Were I the composer, I would definitely want to be consulted with, but I know that's not possible sometimes.

Vacant pieces of music? Yeah, they're definitely out there. I think that artists make works for the wrong reasons sometimes. Rather than making the work a total venture in self-expression, some folks might do something just to be clever or interesting, but I surely will never say that I know what a person's intentions are before they do. I can only go with my feelings and instincts.

I was like that for quite a while. I used to look at scores by John Adams and Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky and see all of this relatively "weird" stuff in the writing (that sounds great, don't read me incorrectly) and I would also want to do "weird" stuff. It would just be for the sake of being different.

Only recently have I made a more naturalist approach to writing in that I write the music that makes me happy and feel good. When I do that, when I write music that I really like, I find that it is not very "new" or interesting in that way, but I feel so much better and more energetic that with the forced stuff. Now, I can only assume that composers like those mentioned above wrote the music they did for the same reason I write my music, because they liked it and it made them feel good. We are all different people and are turned on to different things and that's why their music is "weird".