Is a CC horn Wrong??

[Mark N.]

Well you certainly have gotten the users of this board writing. Admittingly I have not read most of the replies to your post, so I apologize if my comments had already been expressed.

Tubas can be a bit confusing to a director. Just try explaining the 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 thing to a clarinetist some time. ("Does that mean a 6/4 tuba is a 1 1/2 tuba?") I have found that some of the confusion between BBb tubas and CC's to the non-tubist is the lack of understanding that the music itself does not change. As Alan mentioned, a C is a C no matter what. (except for British Band music....but don't worry about that for now, that's not the case in hand.) Some of this confusion comes from comparing the CC tuba to other instruments. Example...if a trumpet player wanted to play a C trumpet in your high school band that would be considered a bit unusual. 99% of the parts in band are written in Bb and the teacher knows the trumpet would have to transpose to play the correct pitches. He/she may think the CC tuba player would have to do the same thing. Even other brass players have a hard time understanding that we don't transpose, we instead use a different set of fingerings. (I love it when trumpet players are convinced we are still transposing!) If you are still adjusting to CC fingerings, it is completely possible that your director thinks you are transposing and is worried that your reading ability will continue to suffer. He needs to understand several things....

So here are my suggestions...
1. POLITELY inform your teacher that nearly every tuba player currently performing in the DC service bands play CC tubas in the concert bands. A performer chooses either BBb or CC by preference and not by whether you are playing in a band or orchestra. A CC tuba is every bit a "band instrument" than a BBb is "band instrument."

2. Make sure he understands that you are going thru a small period of adjustment in learning the CC fingerings. These fingerings are permanent and you are not transposing. All music written for tuba is written for concert pitch so your music never changes. It doesn't matter if it says BBb tuba, Bass, Bass Tuba, or whatever on your part, it is in concert pitch. This is why your fingerings are permanent. So now a C is open and a Bb is 1st valve, and so on. Always!!! After a couple of weeks you will be fluent in the CC fingerings and no more problems.

3. Let him/her know that you are excited about getting your own instrument and you are more committed than ever to play and learn more. Your new instrument is a high motivational tool.

4. Only if necessary, inform your band direcxtor that once you have switched to CC tuba, playing sousaphone really isn't a problem. The BBb fingerings will come back more easily, but this won't be too much of an issue since you will be probably memorizing your music anyway.


Lastly, I have known some very good band directors who make the mistake your director is making. I think we have to start doing a better job as a tuba community in teaching the educator about our instruments. The instrument method classes in colleges usually only deal with BBb tubas and rarely explain the size clarifications of the tuba. I hope seeing what this poster is going through will lead to more of us getting involved in the education of the music educator. (I'm off my soap box now...sorry!)

Good luck in all you do.

Mark

[Captain Sousie]

Amen,

I couldn't have said it better myself Mark.



Sousie

[Alan Baer]

Sousie Wrote:
So, what you are saying is that because I am not very familiar with the bassoon that I should not be teaching band?
I might make some comment about it that is taken to the extreme and have a pro bassoon player make judgements such as these without knowing my qualifications, or frankly anything about me other than a phrase I used that was relayed to a BBS. Personal comments about someone on this board who can defend themselves are bad enough but uninformed comments about someone who isn't even aware of the existence of the forum is inexcusible

Just because we are not perfect does not mean that we should not try. I would like to see how well you do in a public school band class. For some odd reason it is not as easy as it looks.

I would also like to say that sometimes we educators are mislead about an instrument or its capabilities. I was told outright in my brass methods class that you will not run into any tuba other than a BBb in the public school systems unless you have a talented player who purchases their own CC tuba. This, as you all know, is bunk. Still, I could have been mislead by that comment as many probably were. We run into misconceptions at every turn and not everybody knows enough about everything to not hit a wrong path somewhere.

Finally, though this director was mislead at some point in life he/she is doing the best that he/she can in a really tough job. I don't see any of you who were bold enough to say blatantly rude things about a person whom you don't even know showing the courage to go out on a limb and try to do the hard job that this person is doing. Try teaching for a while and see how quick you are to fling insults at a person who is merely doing the best they can with the knowledge they have.

If you last more than a week sporting an attitude like the one in the quote above you might then have room to talk.

Sincerely
Sousie


To respond,
I was an education major in school and realize that the job is thankless and "tough." Now, why did I make the comments that I made? Because being an educator myself,(for the past 11 years in two different Universities) know that what is taught to the students in regards to the low brass, especially the tuba, it’s horrible... There is no time taken with the tuba, in most cases, and this being the foundation of your band, it should not be taken lightly. Whom ever told you that you would never run into anything but a BBb tuba is miserably wrong and should have never told a college student this. The point that I am trying to make is that if you are a Band Director, I am certainly not trying to slam you, I am trying to open your eyes to the fact that the education that you received may not have included ALL the information that you may need for your job. Anyone who THINKS that they're education included everything and is unwilling to keep learning, should not be teaching our young people. I have fought with the administration of both schools that I have taught to increase the awareness of the instrument and well as many other aspects of their degree programs. Please understand that I AM approaching my comments and ideas from the viewpoint of an educator. Any one of my students can tell you that I TRY to exhaust every angle that I can in regards to the tuba and IT'S TEACHING.. especially it's teaching. I am constantly looking for different ways to make it easier and more fun for the student so they will be as excited about subject as I am..
I know my teaching is NOT perfect but I 'm still trying to make it better.

I just hope all of the director s out there are trying to do the same..
Alan Baer
_____________

[Captain Sousie]

Thank you for clarifying Alan.

I do agree that we should never assume that our own knowledge is complete and stop learning. It is the responsibility of every educator to keep learning and to help our students to do the same. I pity the teachers who cannot see this and I hope that they can see the error in their thinking. In this I agree with you wholeheartedly.

My problem is that there were a lot of rude personal comments made by many of the posters and most of them were uninformed and uncalled for. No one should have their worth as an educator judged by what one high school student wrote on an online board. Above all, no one should have to endure that number of personal insults leveled at them behind their back period.

We all know how much fun it is to say how stupid someome is when they can't hear you or retaliate but, as some of the posters should have learned in kindergarten if their teacher was up to everyone here's standards, it is not right.

Professionsalism is a dying art. Despite wrongs, or percieved wrongs, all of us should act in a way that does not stoop to the level of the person who first 'wronged' them. For some odd reason neither "If he has his head that far up his back side he should not be teaching public school" nor any of the previous comments in that manner fit the bill of professionalism or plain common courtesy.


Sincerely,
Sousie


(Sorry to pick on the person I quoted but it was the closest one at hand)

[winston]

.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I can see where he would think that it may be the wrong horn for jazz band. but for band? as long as you know the right fingerings and can playi it in tune I don't see a problem. as far as jazzband he may hant a more trombone sound is all.

I'm pretty sure Richard Murrow uses a CC tuba with the Dallas Jazz Orchestra.
IMHO

As a young student of jazz/improvising, it is undeniable that the "flat key" fingerings on the C tuba will create additional problems in the process of learning to improvise.

Once you get past a certain level of playing, however, the key of the tuba becomes irrelevent.

[corbasse]

.... Also, perhaps go to the library and find a good orchestration book that explains how the keyed tubas work. This will definitely prove you know what you are telling your teacher, and he or she may be reminded of a discussion that was had in college orchestration class.....!

Be sure to get a recent, American textbook. This because older, European books will only confirm your band teacher in his erronous ways. Around here, tubas ARE treated as transposing instruments. Most of the time.

[Rick Denney]

To those who would seek to correct a mistaken band director: You are, of course, correct (assuming what we heard here is true, which is a rather grand assumption, it seems to me). But there is a problem. You are not talking to the band director. You are talking to a student who is subject to the authority of the band director.

To the student: It is not your job to teach your band director. Repeat: It is not your job to reach your band director. Doing so will cause more trouble for you than you need. You are not in a position to fight this battle, and doing so will ruin your band experience. Don't do it.

There are only two people in the world who can help you with your band director: Your parent (either one will do), and your private teacher. But not in that order. If your private teacher calls the band director and has a chat with him, pro to pro, with the main subject of the discussion being what is good for you, then progress is likely. If your parent calls the band director and has a discussion about what is good for you, then progress is likely.

(You do have a private teacher, don't you? If not, and if you can't afford one, sell the CC tuba, buy a BBb for half the price, and spend the rest on lessons with a good pro. You'll go much further playing a BBb well than a CC poorly.)

Of course, what is good for you may not be what you want. And in the end, the band director is your teacher and has authority in the classroom, even if you disagree with him, and even if he is wrong. If, after those two discussions, you find him unwilling to change his mind, either conform cheerfully or leave the band program. Do not be a poison in the band room, no matter how it turns out--you'll end up the one poisoned.

Mr. Baer is a top pro, but he is still subject to the sometimes ignorant whims of conductors who can make his life hell if he doesn't treat them with the proper respect. Arnold Jacobs played, for part of a season, a very small Dehmal F tuba that he despised, because his conductor requested it. He went back to his York because in the end it worked better, and his conductor came around. There is not a professional tuba player in any band or orchestra who has not had to conform to what he thought was poor direction. It's part of life, and now is not too soon to get used to it.

Remember, your teacher is your boss while you are in the classroom. You are required to treat him with respect, even if he is wrong. If you don't do so, you will for sure lose this argument, and you will lose more besides.

Rick "who hopes it is not too late" Denney

[Leland]

Might be too late for this idea, but...

Whenever I bring my tuba to a new group, the other players always (yes, ALWAYS) say, "That's a CC tuba, isn't it?" They ask this even after hearing me play.

I have to dash their hopes by telling them that it's a BBb.

My point? If you're playing well enough, nobody would know the difference.

Maybe you can get significantly better over Christmas break, and when you come back, just tell your director that you traded the CC for a BBb that just happened to be built the same way. Some manufacturers have nearly-identical BBb and CC tubas, after all.

But that's just being sneaky.

[tubathig]

I suppose that is why a great deal of college bands use CC tubas. Your band director needs to go back to playing flute.

[Rick Denney]

I reviewed my own earlier comments and don't find them to be inappropriate. I will admit to a local bias that I have involving band director ignorance...

...and corruption.

I'm not disagreeing at all with what you say. My point is to say that a student is not in the position to fight this battle, and doing so will always punish the student. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." The band director, whether competent or corrupt, is still in authority in the band room.

The worst possible outcome here is for the student to go into the band director's office and say, "All my tuba-playing friends think you are an idiot who should go back to playing clarinet in college, and some even suspect that you are on the take with the local music store. I demand that you let me play my new tuba!" The result of that challenge, and rightly so, would be the expulsion of that student from the band program, were I the band director. At best, the student would be marked as a troublemaker and would be punished, at the very least by being marginalized. And the more corrupt the BD, the worse it would be.

It is not the student's job to enforce good understanding and ethics on the part of the band director. The student needs to recruit adult and professional help in that endeavor.

Most people in this evil world are subject to corrupt and ignorant masters at one time or another. Part of growing up is learning how to deal with it in ways not self-destructive. We should be careful in the advice we give, even on this free forum--somebody might take us seriously and get themselves in trouble.

Rick "not defending bad band directors, but having the student's best interests in mind" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Y'know, there's another possibility. Now, I'm not saying that this is true, ony worth consideration.

It might be that the young player who's the subject of this thread doesn't play as much in tune with the band when he's on CC as when he's on BBb.

Note that I said "with the band". How many high-school tuba sections (and community band tuba sections) consistently play third-line D quite flat? It may not be obvious from behind a BBb tuba, but believe me, if you're the only CC or Eb or F in a section, it can get to be almost painful at times. Heaven knows what the sound is like up front.

I'm sure that there are other problematic notes as well.

So I'm on the BD's side on this one, but not necessarily for the reasons he vocalized.

[ThomasDodd]

Most people in this evil world are subject to corrupt and ignorant masters at one time or another. Part of growing up is learning how to deal with it in ways not self-destructive. We should be careful in the advice we give, even on this free forum--somebody might take us seriously and get themselves in trouble.

All too true. Sad that that's a part of the human condition, but it is.

Intrerestingy, I never even knew tubas came other than BBb untill my 4th year of college (E.E. major but in the band). High school music programs just don't cover this stuff, for lot's of reasons. I never learned about differently keyed brass or WW there, contra-bass clarinets, or lower flutes (like the alto).