Use of Electric Base in Concert Band

[Dan Schultz]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

MAYBE one double-bass in certain tunes where the score calls for it..... but NEVER a section of amplified solid-body pieces of firewood! The thing I dislike most about using any sort of amplified instrument in band is there is usually very little effort at dynamics. Turn it up.... and leave it up, seems to be standard operating procedure. If guitars show up... I usually go home!

[iiipopes]

Hey, Tubatinker -- I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with amplified instruments. Of course, I must be the exception: being good in math, I was taught that there are other numbers on the knobs, including zero, and not just 10.

The sad part is exactly what you're talking about, and that most do not explore the incredibly wide range of dynamics and musical expression possible with just a little forethought.

When I do play one of my electric instruments, now I eschew carrying amplifiers as much as possible, and use a digital emulator or just straight into the board and let the sound man deal with it. Of course, he's definitely been taught that there is a zero there, in the form of a mute button, as well as a slider. I keep that in mind.

[djwesp]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

MAYBE one double-bass in certain tunes where the score calls for it..... but NEVER a section of amplified solid-body pieces of firewood! The thing I dislike most about using any sort of amplified instrument in band is there is usually very little effort at dynamics. Turn it up.... and leave it up, seems to be standard operating procedure. If guitars show up... I usually go home!

The exact same reason I stopped taking my money to drum corps shows.


Amplification done poorly, with brass instruments ... it sounds tacky, disgusting, and seldom works correctly in such settings.

[iiipopes]

Yes, but when it does work correctly, it is a nice addition. Not replacement, but addition.

[djwesp]

Yes, but when it does work correctly, it is a nice addition. Not replacement, but addition.

In a drum corps setting, i've yet to see an addition.


Other ensembles, yes.


(bitter old alum)

[LoyalTubist]

Some groups use the electric bass as a substitute for tuba. It makes the tuba seem like a useless instrument. Fortunately, there are some groups out there (including one major circus--at least) which still recognizes the worth of a tuba. I am not against the use of an electric bass guitar unless it means that it is being used to substitute for the tuba. Let me further state that, if it's being used to enhance the bass section, the leader of that group does not recognize the worth of a tuba.

[iiipopes]

Remember, I said addition, not substitute, enhancement, or any other word that could be misconstrued.

Remember also that the lower end of a concert band needs the woodwinds, Eb bari sax, Eb & BBb contra clarinets, and even a bassoon as well as the tubas to fully complement and support the band.

A bass guitar is just that -- one more voice that, when done correctly, complements the band and gives more tone color.

These same discussions were made about Fender's "plank" guitar when it first came out, and about digital synthesizers when they first came out, and even about trumpets by the cornet virtuosi of a century ago. Although the cornet guys may have had a point!

Just for perspective, I had the option of playing bass guitar myself in a recent concert on a particular piece -- a Beatles medly arranged for concert band that looked like it had been rearranged from a brass band arrangement -- complete with octave parts all the way through on the tuba part. After reviewing the entire arrangement with the conductor, we came to the conclusion that on that particular piece it wouldn't add anything, and may have even detracted, so I not only stayed with tuba, but I honked it out on my Besson BBb to give it that tone color which did perfectly support that particular piece.

[pulseczar]

being good in math, I was taught that there are other numbers on the knobs, including zero, and not just 10.

I find that bass guitars don't blend very well with the band and the attack is too 'punchy' to be subtle and harmonious.

[MartyNeilan]

I think the big debate shouldn't be about changing the numbers on the dial. It should be about playing with musicality and control and probably with the use of a volume pedal (something many guitarists would never leave home without, but that many bassists have never even heard of.) I have played in more than a few church orchestras with rhythm sections where the bass sounds just fine on forte tutti sections, but as soon as the instrumentation drops down, and you have a handful of woodwinds playing mp, the good ol' bass player is still pluckin' away FF.

I have found that there are typically two kinds of bass players - very good and really bad. Unfortunately, there seems to be virtually no in-between.

[GC]

There is no excuse for bass players to play the same volume all the time. You can go from pp to ff using nothing but the fingers of your picking hand. It just takes practice and control.

[iiipopes]

If the bass guitar is too punchy sounding, then the player is not exhibiting enough control with the articulation of his playing. In order to play with precision and proper articulation to blend with a band, a bass player needs to learn proper technique, which includes learning classical upright bass left hand positions for fluidity of line and proper pizzacato technique a little more toward the side of the finger from the tip to the first joint, and not flat on, which produces the boing that is objectionable.

As Marty said, the volume pedal is also handy. Just like a pedal steel player takes the edge off attack with the pedal, I used that very thing when playing an arrangement of Ave Maria the season I was with the Welk show to take even more attack off the articulation and blend better, with a touch of compression, as well as fine tune volume on the fly, since there were no uprights bowing the part.

As GC said, right and left hand control are both indespensible for particular tones to blend with either brass, woodwind or both, as does a classical guitar player in where he picks in relation to the position either closer or farther away from the bridge or neck, as well as his string pressure from both hands affecting both intonation and articulation characteristics. For example, if you can't articulate the strings for a pianissimo even with the bass & amp both cranked, you aren't doing it correctly. I joked about the numbers on the knobs in my post above, but they are useful in finding the linear area in the preamp and power amp to get the best tone for blend out of your bass & amp.

Selection of equipment is important. I'm not talking brands, but quality. Just as with horns, most of the beginner basses are made no better than the beginner horns that are to be avoided: plywood with inferior electronics. Quality wood, electronics and workmanship are necessary just as with any instrument. Too small an amplifier, and it won't have the necessary volume or body of tone without clipping, and too large an amplifier is hard to control.

Since the nature of the beast is attack and fall off of volume, a touch of judicious use of proper compression can help the legato line, since the order of the day for most electric bass playing is pizzacato and not arco.

But I've only been doing it for over thirty years.

[Dan Schultz]

There is no excuse for bass players to play the same volume all the time. You can go from pp to ff using nothing but the fingers of your picking hand. It just takes practice and control.

I once knew a fellow who decided to take up bass guitar because he thought it looked 'easy'. In a way he's right.... sort of like tuba playing is 'easy' as compared to trumpet, flute, or clarinet... IF all you are looking at is the amount of notes. What folks don't understant when they take up these 'easy' instruments is that EVERY note has to be EXACTLY where it is supposed to be, in tune, and at the proper dynamic. It's been my observation that many fellows play bass guitars because they simply aren't good enough to play anything else. Sort of like drummers. True... there are some very good ones, but... there are a heckofalot of them who aren't!

[GC]

I agree with both Marty and Coder on the utility of volume pedals. I've never bought one, but there have definitely been times I could have used one. I just learned to do without; maybe it's time to add one to my "arsenal" (one bass, one amp, no effects).

I have always been irritated, though, by bass players who feel that they have to play with one level of fingering force. Refusing to vary picking techniques sticks a player with only one type of attack or tone, and that's not good musicianship. It's laziness.

It's a shame that so many bass players don't realize the complexity of the role. The bass sets the style of the rhythm section, controls the tempo better than the drummer (and often has to straighten out drummers), and provides the heartbeat of the music. It's an instrument that should never be taken lightly. Like Tuba. Or Euphonium.

Wes: You've hit one of my pet peeves: use of on-field amplification. I don't mind bass or guitar amps where there is proper balance and tone that compliments the group. Too many times, the amp is way too loud or way too soft, and tonal adjustments are miles off (usually too much midrange and high bass). What I really hate the most is bad amplification of solo woodwinds; someone who understands equalization and balance would be a great help, but the sound is usually far too loud and the instrument tone is destroyed by incompetent knob-twiddlers. And for crying out loud, you don't need to add reverb inside a dome! [ B.O.A. ]

[Dan Schultz]

There is no excuse for bass players to play the same volume all the time. You can go from pp to ff using nothing but the fingers of your picking hand. It just takes practice and control.

I once knew a fellow who decided to take up bass guitar because he thought it looked 'easy'. In a way he's right.... sort of like tuba playing is 'easy' as compared to trumpet, flute, or clarinet... IF all you are looking at is the amount of notes. What folks don't understant when they take up these 'easy' instruments is that EVERY note has to be EXACTLY where it is supposed to be, in tune, and at the proper dynamic. It's been my observation that many fellows play bass guitars because they simply aren't good enough to play anything else. Sort of like drummers. True... there are some very good ones, but... there are a heckofalot of them who aren't!

WOW!!! That little tubaguy is cool. Where'd he come from, Sean?

Huh??? now where did he go?

[iiipopes]

It's a shame that so many bass players don't realize the complexity of the role. The bass sets the style of the rhythm section, controls the tempo better than the drummer (and often has to straighten out drummers), and provides the heartbeat of the music. It's an instrument that should never be taken lightly. Like Tuba. Or Euphonium.

Indeed. I appreciate it being stated that way. Because depending on the ensemble, the tubist and the bass guitarist often have the same role to play. If you do your job well as a tubist/bassist, unless it is a rare soloistic type setting, you should be so good you actually disappear. Here's what I mean: if I'm playing a standard gig, and someone compliments me as a bass player, then I start wondering where I stuck out when I shouldn't have. But if someone comes up and really compliments the band or performance as a whole, and/or if the dance floor stays full, and/or the father of the bride slips us a tip, and/or the bar owner says we can come back and play next week, etc., then I know I've done my job properly.

[Kevin Hendrick]

WOW!!! That little tubaguy is cool. Where'd he come from, Sean?

Huh??? now where did he go?

New emoticon -- initially bracketed between spaces instead of colons (to alert us to its presence, I think) -- now re-defined bracketed between colons (like all the others). It is cool, isn't it?

[MartyNeilan]

Teachers are always complaining they are doing their best with no money. How about a user fee?

It exists.
It is called a band fee in many districts.
It goes as high as $1400 a year, per kid.
I think it is absolutely crazy.

[Carroll]

Teachers are always complaining they are doing their best with no money. How about a user fee?

It exists.
It is called a band fee in many districts.
It goes as high as $1400 a year, per kid.
I think it is absolutely crazy.

And it would end my program entirely. I have students without running water and/or electricity in the house.

Band fee, pssh.

[Dan Schultz]

WOW!!! That little tubaguy is cool. Where'd he come from, Sean?

Huh??? now where did he go?

New emoticon -- initially bracketed between spaces instead of colons (to alert us to its presence, I think) -- now re-defined bracketed between colons (like all the others). It is cool, isn't it?

The little tubaguy IS cool! He's not working now in my earlier post. Is it on a timer or something?

[averagejoe]

I don't think that an electric bass should be used for tuba parts. It is fine if the music calls for it or for jazz but I definitely think that tubas should be the primary sound.