Indiana University Oral History Project- Bob Rusk

[TonyZ]

Another victory for the pedagogical mafia!

I didn't see anyone here trying to make the case that ITEA had any obligation at all to make that info available to non-members.

"Pedagogical Mafia" does indeed imply that.

[lgb&dtuba]

Yes, there was a hole in our system. I didn't know about it, and I did thank the original poster for pointing this out. I asked him to take down the article, since he had placed it on another site, and it clearly had "copyright, International Tuba Euphonium Association" on the cover page of the article. We have since plugged the gap. I don't think what I did was "hassling", but perhaps it could be interpreted that way.

Please clarify. Did the original poster actually copy the content to another server or simply provide a link to your server? That is a very important distinction. What was posted here was a hyperlink (like the one below). See:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/st_org ... 40401.html

That's by no means an exhaustive search on hyperlinking and may or may not be the latest information, but according to it providing a link to your page would NOT be a copyright infringement (in the US). If hyperlinking constituted copyright infringement then most, if not all, web sites would be guilty today. In fact, linking to that article would be a violation (I'll take my chances).

If what you were objecting to was a hyperlink to your site, then I don't believe you had a legal leg to stand on. But that's just my opinion and I could change it pretty quick if someone provides information showing otherwise.

Copying the content to another site would be an entirely different matter, and demanding that it be removed would be proper and necessary.

You've closed the hole now in any case.

[TubaRay]

What they should have done was simply fix the problem on their end so that non-members couldn't get into that section of their web site.

I didn't see anyone here trying to make the case that ITEA had any obligation at all to make that info available to non-members.

This states the case very clearly, in my opinion.

[windshieldbug]

Location: Sitting in the back row, coughing during horn solos...

That'll teach you to shake hands with a viola (and then wipe off your mouthpiece!)

[lgb&dtuba]

Okay. Everyone step away from the computer. Take a deep breath.

We all know that the info was NOT for non-members.

We all know that the info was NOT accessed in any sort of malicious manner.

Let us all now shut up and talk about other stuff. This whole line of conversation is REALLY stupid – BOTH sides of the argument are meaningless. If you have any of the material (which is copyrighted, BTW) just get rid of it. If you are soooooo intrigued by it then join ITEA and get it as the benefit of membership that it is intended to be. That is all. Everyone go home and do your homework and chores and watch some freaking television for an evening. We have achieved a minor euphonium and tuba community meltdown today over something that is really silly.

Bye, y'all!

In this case you may be missing something here. First, I'm not even close to meltdown. Just discussing an interesting legal point. And that point is relevent beyond this thread. It may seem irrelevent to you. You're entitled to your opinion. Not interested in this thread? Don't read it.

We all use hyperlinks on this forum. If using them is illegal, then we're all vulnerable to someone showing up and demanding that we remove them. Even you, Wade. In fact, if you Google DMCA you'll see a disturbing trend in big business using the DMCA takedown notice to bully others into removing various hyperlinks. Dig a little deeper, especially DMCA and Youtube and you'll see instances where people have fought back against takedown notices and won because they were willing to go to the trouble against the bullies.

I could care less about ITEA per se. Not a member. Not interested in becoming a member. Not my thing. Have nothing against them, either. But I am interested in what I see as an attempt to bully or intimidate someone into removing a perfectly legal hyperlink on this forum.

I do think that was something that probably would not have been handled that way if the legalities were understood, by the way. And therefore isn't so much about ITEA (to me) as it is about the general case of someone showing up here demanding that we remove hyperlinks to their web site.

Maybe next time this happens no one will be intimidated into removing their link.

[MartyNeilan]

You've closed the hole now in any case.

Not completely...
(Putting on IT hat)
The same google search can still be performed, bringing up the same links to PDF files - which are now closed.
HOWEVER, Google also has the option to "open as html" which opens an html conversion stored on Google's servers. However long they maintain that cache remains to be seen.

[dwaskew]

Good Grief.

I'm 99.9% positive the original poster had placed the file on another webpage, but I can't find in my cache where that page was. Therefore, I have no proof. I'm not upset about the fact that it happened, and as I said before, I actually thanked him for pointing this hole out. I really don't think I would've contacted him if the link had only gone to the ITEA site.
We're not in the business of being mafioso types, believe it or not--however, we are an association that has members and we do provide certain things for our members, and I, as current president, have certain responsibilities to our membership. I was acting from that standpoint, nothing else.

[The Big Ben]

OK, fellas:

Chain of events:

1. I did Google search on "Rusk tuba". Came up with Rusk article, DLed it, said "Cool! Gonna share it!"

2. Saw that it was copyrighted but there was no "You must need permission" notice on the article. I wasn't going to change it or charge for it so I ULed it to a server I run to make it easier for all and to save bandwidth on someone else's server.

3. I posted on TubeNet and a few hours later, was asked to take it down and did so.

4. I posted on TubeNet the reason why I was taking the link off TubeNet and removed the article from my server. It's gone- try http://angus.csd49.org/tuba/RobertRusk.pdf to see for yourself.

Let's let it go, eh?

Jeff

[lgb&dtuba]

You've closed the hole now in any case.

Not completely...
(Putting on IT hat)
The same google search can still be performed, bringing up the same links to PDF files - which are now closed.
HOWEVER, Google also has the option to "open as html" which opens an html conversion stored on Google's servers. However long they maintain that cache remains to be seen.

You are correct, of course.

There were some interesting things I saw about cached pages and OSP responsibilities where the OSP's weren't held liable for copyright infringements because of cached pages once the original infringement was removed. Just a side note that would only be something to think about if there was a situation here where Sean's OSP received a DMCA takedown notice. Or Google in this instance.

[Rick Denney]

Maybe next time this happens no one will be intimidated into removing their link.

Jim, you don't know Dennis so you are probably missing a simple fact that many of us are prepared to assume: There was no intimidation or bullying. It was a simple request, complied with willingly by the OP. I see no evidence of coercion or duress. And it would have been only courteous for Dennis to notify the OP that the link would no longer function.

As we all know, there is no requirement on the part of a copyright holder to put any notice of restrictions on their published work. Even the copyright symbol is not required. The profit-making status of the copier has no bearing on that.

A link is not infringement and nobody complained about the link. Reproducing the article in full on another website is, and that was taken care of amicably and immediately. Providing a review of the article with select quotes would be a fair use, but that's not the case here.

Anybody can restrict any portion of their web space to members only. My bank can do it, and ITEA can do it. (And ham radio clubs can do it on their repeater--same principle.) I'm not a member of ITEA and frankly I've had my issues with it in the (deep) past, but this is absolutely legitimate on their part and it was handled completely reasonably, near as I can tell.

Rick "thinking Carole's articles might force me to join" Denney

[lgb&dtuba]

Good Grief.

I'm 99.9% positive the original poster had placed the file on another webpage, but I can't find in my cache where that page was. Therefore, I have no proof. I'm not upset about the fact that it happened, and as I said before, I actually thanked him for pointing this hole out. I really don't think I would've contacted him if the link had only gone to the ITEA site.
We're not in the business of being mafioso types, believe it or not--however, we are an association that has members and we do provide certain things for our members, and I, as current president, have certain responsibilities to our membership. I was acting from that standpoint, nothing else.

So, the full story came out finally and the link was to a copy, not to your web site. In light of that little nugget of information, you neither inappropriately hassled not bullied anyone and I apologize to you for any and all of my perceptions that you had and any distress that may have caused you.

[The Big Ben]

Another victory for the pedagogical mafia!

Intellectual property is just that. Property. If you want it, join the group! ITEA is very involved in pedagogy. If you belong, all of those things are available to you, including performance materials and all of the histories. Don't get angry at an organization for not giving you their things!

If you want to claim intellectual property (a pretentious label at best for an IU-funded or otherwise afilliated effort) then do not post it in an unsecured fashion. "It's my property laying on the sidewalk, in a public place" Pretty dumb if you ask me, or...put a more forgiving way, pretty unthinking, especially for self-impressed academe's. How many academic brain cells does it take to figure THAT one out?

Was this interview part of someone's thesis work or other degree requirement? Aren't such things available for review by any academic (who contacts the affiliate's university)? If such is/are the case, what claim does ITEA have over this as "property"?

You know, my intention, was that the group would read about Bob Rusk and his teachers, Bill Bell and Arnold Jacobs (who were his teachers at the same time and he had to keep one from knowing about the other) and their methods. Maybe, after a few fellas read the article, we could kick it around here and learn a little something and debate tuba pedagogy a bit. I know very little about tuba pedagogy but reading people who know more than me would be enlightening. The 'horn heads' could read about the process Rusk used to 'Jacobize' his own York. (Basically, he has access to Jake's horn and went back and looked at it multiple times.) The recent discussion here about the intonation of big horns? Rusk talks about it in that article.

Had no idea it would go off in this direction. God, I hate pissing matches. My shoes just get wet and my pants stink even after they dry out.

Jeff "Singing in the rain" Benedict

Jeff

[BVD Press]

but, but....

[windshieldbug]

Alright. I warned you all. You are all grounded for two weeks without allowance!

What won't you be allowing for, Herr Elefant?

[windshieldbug]

You wouldn't say that if MY PARENTS were home!