HELP! Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto

[TubaRay]

I didn't think a simple question was going to warrant such hostility.

I have re-read this entire thread and I have been unable to find where there was any hostility. Where did you find it?

[sloan]

I didn't think a simple question was going to warrant such hostility.

I have re-read this entire thread and I have been unable to find where there was any hostility. Where did you find it?

Perhaps he is introspecting?

[MaryAnn]

It was something of a light bulb for me when I realized that composers are unlikely to use theory when they write (although they do use form, often one of their own making/modifying.) Theory is for after-the-fact analyisis, and frankly I have never seen the use for it. It's not like the composer thought "Oh, I think I'll put in a passing tone here!" What probably occurred was "I like the way this sounds so I think I'll use it."

M "I suspect jazz improv is different" A

[porkchopsisgood]

Use Macro Analysis.

Probably the easiest way to show key relationships, and doesn't require you to go into ridiculous minutia using traditional harmonic analysis.

[lgb&dtuba]

It was something of a light bulb for me when I realized that composers are unlikely to use theory when they write (although they do use form, often one of their own making/modifying.) Theory is for after-the-fact analyisis, and frankly I have never seen the use for it. It's not like the composer thought "Oh, I think I'll put in a passing tone here!" What probably occurred was "I like the way this sounds so I think I'll use it."

M "I suspect jazz improv is different" A

Well, the main use of theory is in writing dissertations, thereby ever expanding academia's role in explaining what actual creative people have done and what they must have been thinking at the time.

Reminds me of the scene in "Back to School" where Rodney Dangerfield flunks an analysis of Kurt Vonnegut's writing that he had hired Kurt Vonnegut to write for him.

[jonesbrass]

Reminds me of the scene in "Back to School" where Rodney Dangerfield flunks an analysis of Kurt Vonnegut's writing that he had hired Kurt Vonnegut to write for him.

I'm a huge Vonnegut fan, and that is one of my favorite movie scenes of all time . . . really falls nicely in line with Vonnegut's sense of humor, as well.

One of my favorite Vonnegut quotes:

"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC."

[sloan]

Reminds me of the scene in "Back to School" where Rodney Dangerfield flunks an analysis of Kurt Vonnegut's writing that he had hired Kurt Vonnegut to write for him.

Only a tuba player would use a Dangerfield reference when a Woody Allen reference is available.

But...why do you think that Kurt Vonnegut has any idea about how his creative process actually works?

Or...given a commission to write an analysis of Kurt Vonnegut, what does the rest of his work suggest that Kurt Vonnegut would do with that opportunity?

[eupher61]

"General, it is both an honor and a privilege and a pleasure to welcome you to that which without your magnanimous generosity we wouldn't be standing in the middle of it."
--Henry Blake, M*A*S*H,Season 2, Episode 15: Officers Only

[Rick Denney]

according to the theory professor giving that part of the exam, VW was trying to stray away from normal conventions of the time, but at the same time, making something that was aesthetically pleasing. It was interesting---and relieving!!!! -----to realize that my initial analysis was in the right neck of the woods!

Sounds like the rest of us were in that same neck of the woods, heh, heh.

Don't apologize for being a newbie. You're getting it--you'll do fine.

Rick "afraid we'd run Mr. 1984 off and glad we didn't" Denney

[KevinBock]

F Blues, D-Major with episodes(learn this term if you expect to explain theory to any Student), F Melodic minor. There are exceptions in each movement of course, but those instances are where V-Dub broke conventions. Please don't assume that Ralph wrote everything in this "piece" to sound good. There is a reason for music theory, conventionality dictates simple rules. Whether or not VW accomodated to these rules 100% of the time is absolutely debatable, but please, don't assume that composers write things because "they sounded good" if you don't understand it. That is exactly the reason why every two bit punk kid isn't Mozart or Beethoven; there are exceptions and personal preference in altered chords for every composer. It is not "this sounds good" but more, "this is MY solution to the problem." Anyone who has taken intense music theory courses can attest to that, there are ALWAYS multiple answers, and these are simply predicated on school of teaching. There is more "EUREKA!" in music than any musical master would care to admit. It may not be "I like this sound" but more of, "this works HERE."

My 2 cents on this board, I can't wait for the flaming either.

[MartyNeilan]

bloke "I would not have bothered as I have no dog in this hunt whatsoever, but you seemed so eager. To be perfectly frank, in certain ways 'music theorists' sometimes remind me of other 'scientists' such as Dr.'s of chiropractic and psychiatry."

Tell me more...

[Uncle Buck]

bloke "I would not have bothered as I have no dog in this hunt whatsoever, but you seemed so eager. To be perfectly frank, in certain ways 'music theorists' sometimes remind me of other 'scientists' such as Dr.'s of chiropractic and psychiatry."

Tell me more...

Are you sure you didn't intend this guy:

[lgb&dtuba]

Reminds me of the scene in "Back to School" where Rodney Dangerfield flunks an analysis of Kurt Vonnegut's writing that he had hired Kurt Vonnegut to write for him.

Only a tuba player would use a Dangerfield reference when a Woody Allen reference is available.

But...why do you think that Kurt Vonnegut has any idea about how his creative process actually works?

Or...given a commission to write an analysis of Kurt Vonnegut, what does the rest of his work suggest that Kurt Vonnegut would do with that opportunity?

It was a reference to a movie that comments in this thread reminded me of. Nothing more. Get it? Feel free to analyze away.

[imperialbari]

Were I clever enough to decipher all of the "rules", of course I would know whether V.W. followed them 100% of the time, but since Phil Catalinet made hundreds of (surely "rule"-breaking) changes to the solo part (as I own a copy of the manuscript score), why does this piece "work" at all?

I became kind of biased against this piece when Roger Bobo in a televised master class in Denmark compared the tuba concert to the oboe concert by the same composer and told that somebody had found that oboe concert as interesting as watching a cow grazing. Still Bobo was thankful that “Uncle Ralph” had at all written something for the tuba.

The concert band setting is small and I, as 4th horn, was asked whether I wanted to double the 2nd horn part in a performance with a very good young soloist. I thanked no after having practiced the part at home, as I didn't like the part. I heard rehearsals and performance, and I wasn't really moved by the music.

However a semi-countryman of mine by accidence made a recording of the 2nd movement with Arnold Jacobs on a small F tuba backed by strings available on the web. That caught my ears because I very clearly could hear the tension and release patterns of the harmonic progress.

After having acquired a medium small British F tuba recently I have thought about buying the music and learning this concert myself. And now bloke very strongly indicates that the published version has been changed thoroughly by the first official performer of the concert.

That makes me doubting and curious. Some years ago threads on TubeNet came very close to saying that Philip Catelinet was not the greatest tubaplayer imaginable even for his country and time. He was said to have taken up the instrument more or less because an orchestra, where he was associated as a pianist, had missed a tuba player, because the British military had drafted a lot of musicians during WWII. There is no doubt that PC was well schooled in music. Yet I don't like the hint that a player not mastering the tuba at the highest level has tinkered with the music in the official edition.

This problem of somebody knowing better than the composer is quite common. During his own time and during the decades thereafter Carl Nielsen was considered a bad instrumentator of his own music. His son in law was a violin virtuoso and a conductor out of a very different national tradition (Hungary). He changed the scores of several passages of especially Carl Nielsen's symphonies. The pocket scores of my student years around 1970 had the original as well as the alterations written in a somewhat confusing way.

The newest trend of maybe 20 years has been to clean out scores and parts from the alterations. Carl Nielsen very well knew what he did only the orchestras of his era couldn't bring out the clarity of his scoring as well as the better modern orchestras. Actually this cleaner trend was started by Leonard Bernstein in his recordings with the NYPO and with the Royal Danish Orchestra. LB went that far, that he followed Carl Nielsen's ink score to the last dot. Also in a certain oboe passage, where Nielsen had missed an accidental, which was clearly indicated in the pencil score.

I have reasons to think, that bloke could provide a better print version of the music for the Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto from the manuscript than the present edition. However I have equally strong reasons to think, that this will not happen as long as bloke is physically capable of pursuing his present double career as a performer and as a brass tech with extended skills.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[MaryAnn]

F Blues, D-Major with episodes(learn this term if you expect to explain theory to any Student), F Melodic minor. There are exceptions in each movement of course, but those instances are where V-Dub broke conventions. Please don't assume that Ralph wrote everything in this "piece" to sound good. There is a reason for music theory, conventionality dictates simple rules. Whether or not VW accomodated to these rules 100% of the time is absolutely debatable, but please, don't assume that composers write things because "they sounded good" if you don't understand it. That is exactly the reason why every two bit punk kid isn't Mozart or Beethoven; there are exceptions and personal preference in altered chords for every composer. It is not "this sounds good" but more, "this is MY solution to the problem." Anyone who has taken intense music theory courses can attest to that, there are ALWAYS multiple answers, and these are simply predicated on school of teaching. There is more "EUREKA!" in music than any musical master would care to admit. It may not be "I like this sound" but more of, "this works HERE."

My 2 cents on this board, I can't wait for the flaming either.

One of these days I'd like to talk to few modern successful composers and query them as to how they write. I bet we find a mix of "it just flows" and "I have to struggle for every note." I seem to remember that Mozart "received" his music in his head, listened to it, and then the rest was "just scribbling." It depends a lot on your personal belief system how you will interpret the "received" portion of that.

M "as close as I can come to a flame today" A

[KevinBock]

One of these days I'd like to talk to few modern successful composers and query them as to how they write. I bet we find a mix of "it just flows" and "I have to struggle for every note." I seem to remember that Mozart "received" his music in his head, listened to it, and then the rest was "just scribbling." It depends a lot on your personal belief system how you will interpret the "received" portion of that.

M "as close as I can come to a flame today" A

You got it Mary Ann. Seriously, this is the interpretation I am talking about. I was fortunate enough to have James Woodward as a sightsinging TA for one of my Undergrad semesters. I was also fortunate enough to record his miniatures for tuba to get it printed. And you know what? This is exactly what he told me about. Some days it just flows and some days, this movement is a beast. And James absolutely solves his problems differently than Mr. Vaughan-Williams would, not because of what "he likes to hear" but because "this got me from point B to point C." And he really cares more about melody B and melody C much more than he cares about getting to them. Schumann's symphonies are great examples of this. They are masterful works, with very unmasterful transitions, and hell; they were revised many, many times!