5th valve

[pwhitaker]

I recently sold my brand new Mira 1291 5v BBb which was a very nice horn in favor of an older Rudy 5/4(!) BBb with 4 valves. The intonation with the 4th valve on the Rudy between the low E and Low C (with a big pull on the 1st valve) right above the pedal is as good as was the 5 valve Mira, and has less resistance. This horn is so big that the false tone low B sounds like a pedal.

I practice many tunes in that ultra low range - all the way down to the pedal sub-contra D which I can play with 1-4. The pedal sub-contra C sometimes is playable (on a good day with the wind at my back) using 2-3-4. This is with a 36 mm AA deep mpc.

My experience with the really big BBb's is that you don't need a 5th valve. Between slide pulls and the amount of play in the extreme low register these horns are easy to play in tune down there - and they really sound good. I generally finish my bit in St. James Infirmary Blues on that sub-contra pedal D and the crowd seems to like it.

[jeopardymaster]

To sniff or not to sniff? I was taught, and I have taught, to use the sniff as a tool to help with opening up the back of the oral cavity, and for facility in getting "snatch" breaths. That was Sam Green's doing, and I presumed he got it from Bill Bell. I internalized it pretty well, but have had mixed success turning students on to it. And I never made it anything like a requirement, chacun a son gout. There are plenty of second- to fourth- generation Bell disciples out there, I daresay most of us. Anyone else share this bit of pedagogical lore?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I practice many tunes in that ultra low range - all the way down to the pedal sub-contra D which I can play with 1-4. The pedal sub-contra C sometimes is playable (on a good day with the wind at my back) using 2-3-4. This is with a 36 mm AA deep mpc.

This is one of those cases where it's unclear to me whether the poster means notes just above the fundamental or way below it.

I really wish we could standarize the use of the word "pedal"...but I think the same thing of "CC tuba."

pwhitaker, is this the note you call pedal sub-contra D???

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Very interesting. Kinda isometric, I imagine, which can stiffen up muscles at first, but still very interesting approach...

I wish I could take credit for the technique, but I will give that honor to Jarrod Williams of the US Naval Academy Band (who posts here occasionally). I think he approached me with the "corner face" the first day I met him at KU, accompanied by some low "MMM" sounds...very strange greeting.

Still, the "technique" worked for me. I still lower my corners when taking a breath to prepare for a low note.

[pwhitaker]

I practice many tunes in that ultra low range - all the way down to the pedal sub-contra D which I can play with 1-4. The pedal sub-contra C sometimes is playable (on a good day with the wind at my back) using 2-3-4. This is with a 36 mm AA deep mpc.

This is one of those cases where it's unclear to me whether the poster means notes just above the fundamental or way below it.

I really wish we could standarize the use of the word "pedal"...but I think the same thing of "CC tuba."

pwhitaker, is this the note you call pedal sub-contra D???

I'm talking about the pedal of that note - 3 more ledger lines and a space. It's the note one tone above the theoretical bottom note of my BBb - (pedal on 1-2-3-4 - which I have to get clearly.)

[sailn2ba]

I agree with tuben that there’s not enough energy in the fundamental down there to make up a significant fraction of what you hear. . . and a tubist can’t pump out the subsonic vibration that a powerful organ can. However, the overtone series that one does hear can carry the impression of the pitch and it certainly sounds like it’s in a lower octave.
I also agree with pwhitaker on “pedal” terminology. Pedals are the 1st harmonic of the tube, given the effects of taper and bell. It’s just that so many other harmonics are in the sound.
I guess I also stand corrected on the relative ease of producing pedals on the trumpet and flugelhorn. I was thinking it would be a function of cylindrical bore.

[Wyvern]

I do not think most humans can actually identify pitch by ear in that low register anyway - it is just a low rumble. I know when playing pieces in the low register, I have at times miscounted ledger lines, but conductors never notice my 'mispitch'

[Charlie Goodman]

To sniff or not to sniff? I was taught, and I have taught, to use the sniff as a tool to help with opening up the back of the oral cavity, and for facility in getting "snatch" breaths. That was Sam Green's doing, and I presumed he got it from Bill Bell. I internalized it pretty well, but have had mixed success turning students on to it. And I never made it anything like a requirement, chacun a son gout. There are plenty of second- to fourth- generation Bell disciples out there, I daresay most of us. Anyone else share this bit of pedagogical lore?

My teacher for my pre-college playing life also studied extensively with Mr. Bell, and advocated a sniff breath for those quick breaths in the middle of passages. I still use them occasionally.

[djwesp]

1) I don't think one should ever breathe through ones nose for playing unless you're circular breathing. It simply is not the most efficient and quietest way to take in air. My teacher would strangle me, and I would strangle (actually, I DO) my students for breathing through the nose...
J.c.S.

I am not advocating breathing thru the nose as a performance or breath facilitation practice. I am incorporating it as a part of my practice routine as a basis for embouchure development. It is used to keep the embouchure set in place, so there is not a change from range to range in placement. Also, so when the mouthpiece is to my face my embouchure is set. Not having my embouchure set when it is placed on the mouthpiece (prior to playing) is one of the biggest issues i have had to overcome in consistency. This plagues many tuba players. It gives them an unbalanced and crunched embouchure in the mouthpiece, because they put the mouthpiece to their face and then force their lips into it afterwards.

When practicing stuff for "range" I usually follow Carmine Caruso's "six rules of development". I do this because it works and I do this because of the focus on relaxation and the RESULTS i see.

1. Tap your foot during the entire exercise. Use a rigid up and down motion. "One muscle controls all other muscles"

2. Breathe in from the nose. To ensure the embouchure does not move. Breathing practice is done in all other facets of playing.

3. Keep the mouthpiece on the lips for the entire exercise/etude/study. The embouchure shall remain in position even during the bars of rest, only the pressure can and should be removed for blood flow.

4. The first note of each exercise is used with a breath attack.

5. Always before each exercise breath out entirely for two beats, then in entirely for two beats.

6. Keep the flow steady. Loud dynamics should still only be medium effort.



These are little points, but when followed I see results. They worked for Caruso's students for many years Trombone and Trumpet students still actively follow his teachings, and I like it because it works for me. Using the Caruso studies, rochut, and Caruso's six rules I feel better about my playing than I ever have.

Many of these concepts are not restricted to just Caruso. Reinhardt used them extensively (especially the static embouchure placement/breathing thru nose), definitely not to the extent of Caruso, but his range and spiderweb studies are done in similar fashion.



Wes "Not claiming to be a better tubist/musician/more educated than JC (because I'm probably not); but not sure if JC read his previous post entirely" pendergrass

[Bill Troiano]

If you've studied with Harvey, or with anyone who has studied with Harvey, you have probably learned to use the sniff breath. It is meant purely to catch a quick breath or 2, to get through a phrase, when you can then take a full breath. In my mentor, Rudy Emilson's recent arrangement of the Blavet, Sonata No. 4 (Kendor), he advocates the use of the sniff breath is specific places. I find the technique very usefull to get through these phrases.

[bububassboner]

Ok so most people dont think you need a 5th on a BBb or a CC tuba, yet it is a must for the F tuba. So my question, do you need one for an Eb?

And go!

[Jay Bertolet]

Ok so most people dont think you need a 5th on a BBb or a CC tuba, yet it is a must for the F tuba. So my question, do you need one for an Eb?

And go!

In my opinion: Invaluable!

All my Eb instruments (including my cimbasso) have 5 valves. I use the 5th on my Eb instruments even more so than on the CCs. But that is only my preference, you see the wealth of different approaches posted just in this thread. Everybody is doing exactly what they should. They're seeking options and picking what works for them. Bloke said it first, you play relatively lower in the range of a bass tuba than on a contrabass tuba. There are a number of reasons for this but I don't think it's a coincidence that you don't see too many 6 valve BBbs and CCs but several Fs.

It's true Klaus that the leadpipe may be one of the most sensitive spots on an instrument and may be the least desirable place to muck around with blow torch and hacksaw. Still, simple mathematics and practicality dictate that adding the valve anywhere else is cost prohibitive, quite risky, and much more difficult to reverse. Building a horn from scratch that way is an entirely different matter and in that case, I totally agree with you that adding the valve later in the bugle is preferable.

Regards,
Jay Bertolet

[Wyvern]

Ok so most people dont think you need a 5th on a BBb or a CC tuba, yet it is a must for the F tuba. So my question, do you need one for an Eb?

Unless it is a compensated Eb, definitely yes to 5 valves if for orchestral, or quintet use.

For band, where there is more commonly other tubas in the ensemble, it is possible to get away with 4 valves, or even 3 valves playing the top part.