Reworking an old Martin

[Paul Scott]

I've seen that "union label" on Bueschers dating from around 1915 or so, but I don't know what those acronyms stand for. Silver plating the horn may not be worth it since they put pretty thin plating on these days. If you can figure out what's up with the tuning slide you might be able to correct some of the intonation problems. I've seen a picture of a horn like yours but with a MUCH smaller main slide. I'm still wondering if this was originally a 3-valve CC tuba because there's quite a bit of tubing added to your slide!

[Tuba Guy]

I actually measured it when I first got it to see if I could convert it to CC (just to see if it could be done, before I realized that I didn't want to risk ruining the horn, and neither did my repairman). The legnth needed to make it into a CC would have to have gone straight across between the tubing. So...it could be possible, but I don't really think it was too likely.
...Actually, that just gave me an idea...tomorrow I'll try just running a hose where the tuning slide is...see what pitch this puts the horn at...if it could work out, I may make a slide...assuming it doesn't put the horn in BB (that'd just be mean to myself)

[Paul Scott]

There is another possibility. I have a Martin from about 1917 that was built in the old low pitch, (roughly 435, I think). It's an Eb tuba that is generally closer to being a D tuba nowadays! If it was a CC tuba built to 435 it may seem like a BB tuba indeed. But the bugle may have the right dimensions for a CC tuba, if the the valve tubing is corrected. Keep us posted!

[iiipopes]

Conventionally, at A440, to convert a BBb to a CC, you need to remove 24 inches of tubing from the bugle, and a significant amount from each valve slide. Please just leave it be in its wonderful patina for its age condition.

I seriously doubt the horn was anything but a BBb, because there has been no commentary on the relative in- or out- of tune playing with valve combinations other than the expected quirks: flat 5th partials and sharp multi-valve combinations.

Everybody in this 4- 5- and 6- valve world forgets what is done so 3-valve horns play in relative tune: 1) Pull 1 so it is a few cents flat; 2) pull 2 so it is a couple of cents flat; 3) this keeps 1+2 from being so sharp; 4) pull 3 so 2+3 is slightly flat, so 5) 1+3 is not so sharp as to be lippable, and, well 6) who uses B nat and low E nat in any respectible band music anyway (said tongue in cheek) and finally 7) the slots are wide enough that you can then focus your embouchure, set pitch and blow.

[The Big Ben]

Eh, 10k is a bit too steep at this point (I could actually get a 6/4 CC for about that much, and possibly 2 BBbs). The plating price is about what I expected, but hopefully if I win a concerto competition and get a grant from my school, plus money from gigs and various holidays, I might be able to afford that much.

Or buy stuff like food and car insurance...

[Matt G]

If you want to throw a new valve cluster on that horn, figure the approximate price of the cluster, and half again that for a good repair tech to do it. So if you figure $2500 for a valveset (I have no idea what a VMI set would cost nowadays) and about $1200 to get the thing mounted in a "proper" fashion.

I am guessing this horn has a good false tone register. A good tuning slide mechanism is probably all you need for 95% of the rep. Even though it is possibly set up for "three valve tuning" as most 3V BBbs are, I never did get into the set-it-and-forget-it mentality, especially with a horn this big. I had a horn of similar dimensions and setup, and ultimately sold it with three valves. However, if I had kept playing, I was going to get a VMI 3302 (I think that is the 5V BBb set) valveset grafted on. While the false tones were solid, getting the pitch right with the false tones doesn't seem as easy as the true fingering, since (IMO) false tones seem to lack a bit of the core I look for.

[tbn.al]

Bore? looks to be about a 12 gague. Could be as large as a 10.

[bububassboner]

I could very well be wrong but weren't the large martins .710?

[Tuba Guy]

What I always do to tune the horn is pull out the first valve slide on the bottom a little bit (not too scientific...about 3/4" or so), and do the same with the 3rd. Then, I put my hand through and adjust the top slides while I play (I usually don't move the 2nd valve side, that's just something I took from my CC), and on 12, I occasionally pull out a bit...My 23 is usually fairly in tune.
Another small problem (something I always mean to work on), is that whenever I get to the C in the staff, I have to push the 1st slide all the way in, and if I do that too fast, it makes a sound as it hits the casing...but even as 13, that C is still incredibly flat and I have to lip it like crazy.
Tomorrow I will go over the partials and check how the intonation is on each. (I just got back from a rehearsal for a gig 70 miles away, and my father's asleep, so I can't really play...not to mention that my practice mutes are still in my dorm, so I couldn't practice if I wanted)

[Tuba Guy]

now that is something i can do

[Paul Scott]

Most of the big Martins had a .730 bore I believe, but there were exceptions. The union badge acknowledges the Metal Polishers, Brass Workers and Platers Union of Elkhart which was organized in 1901. BWU stands for Brass Workers' Union.
According to Dr. Margaret Downie Banks' Conn website this badge appeared on Conn instruments from 1906-1916 and I would imagine it was a similar situation with Martin, (I've also seen this badge on Bueschers).

[iiipopes]

Remember the reason I posted what I did about setting slides is because the tuba is a top-valve: what are you going to pull? Of course, if you have a front-valve tuba you have some pulling options, and may be able to set some of the valve slides to center pitch.

[MartyNeilan]

Remember the reason I posted what I did about setting slides is because the tuba is a top-valve: what are you going to pull? Of course, if you have a front-valve tuba you have some pulling options, and may be able to set some of the valve slides to center pitch.

I vented the 1st and 3rd pistons on my top-action Martin Handcraft and had no issues sliding my left hand under the valve crooks to pull when necessary.

[imperialbari]

Cheap fix!

$180.

Ha, ha, ha, bloke, but not really fair!

For $180 you also get 4 brass washers.

K

[ztuba]

oberloh.com

[Tuba Guy]

Remember the reason I posted what I did about setting slides is because the tuba is a top-valve: what are you going to pull? Of course, if you have a front-valve tuba you have some pulling options, and may be able to set some of the valve slides to center pitch.

It's actually a front action (front valve/whatever everyone's calling it)...I just put my hand through the back and adjust while I'm playing

[Tuba Guy]

Ok, so I was looking up the serial number to see if I could figure out where the discrepancies were. I found the site that I had originally used to date the horn http://www.musictrader.com/martin.html" target="_blank. The thing that I found after this, though was that in 1962, they were under a different company's name (not even Martin), and also "The" Martin Band Instrument Company was (as was said on here) early in the century.
Long story short, I have no idea about this horn's age. I'm going to look up the union seal next to see if it has any insight.

[Tuba Guy]

Ok, so I finally got a chance to go over this horn with my friend's tuner (mine is nowhere to be found, i can only assume I left it at school). The Bb in the staff is perfectly in tune (main slide out a little bit). The low Bb though is in tune at A430 in its most centered place (it has enough wiggle room to go from B-A). I'm thinking this is definitely low pitch.
Ironically, the low C (13) was in tune at 440 and at 430 is sharp.
I would place my bets on it being low pitch, but i'll need a good 4th valve if I put it into 440 to be able to lower that down (ok, so most of the low F partial is on the sharper side)