Doping

[WoodSheddin]

I am not built to play football as much as I enjoy it. I could take stuff to increase mas, but belive God had other plans for me.

I have seen the comparison between steroids and beta blockers made before, but it is always made by those on the sidelines who have not had a need for beta blockers or have chosen to never obtain a prescription for them if they could benefit. I will make an assumption that you are in either category.

I have witnessed individuals who have used both. I have also read the discussions of the dangerous side effects of using steroids over a prolonged period of time in order to increase muscle mass. Beta blockers are not used in the same way. Beta blockers are taken only just before the performance in order to calm the racing heart and control the shakes.

Steroids are taken over an extended period to artificially enhance the fundemental muscle mass of an athlete. Beta blockers are not taken that way and do not enhance the musical performance, physically or mentally, from that which was obtained from hours spent wood shedding. If anything Inderal actually has a side effect in many of emotionally deadening a performance compared to what may have been happening in the practice room. This side effect is nowhere near as severe as the physical conditions associated with performance anxiety, so the trade off is worth it.

Steroids accellerate an athlete's muscle buildup with less training. Only hard preparation and years of dedication will make winning an audition or performing a world class recital possible. The beta blockers simply help to cut down on the shakes during the actual performance/audition. Inderal is not Viagra for the chops.

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

[Mudman]

I have tried theater, and do get stage fright. I cannot breather and my voice looses all power. In normal situations my voice carries too well, and have to actively keep it down. That why theater was suggested.

For argument's sake, what if you were driven to become an actor. You loved acting more than anything else. You studied with the best actors alive, read every article, spent hours browsing ActNet , and did everything you could be to become a great actor. In front of the mirror, you were even more convincing than Anthony Hopkins.

No matter what you did, however, your knees shook whenever you set foot on stage, and you developed a stammer. Nobody was willing to offer you a job and you had to resort to greeting at WalMart.

Should you give up your dream of acting, or look for a way to make it work?

If taking aspirin were the cure, most people would take the aspirin. It turns out that propranolol or inderal have fewer side effects than aspirin, when taken in the tiny doses used by musicians. People with high blood pressure take several hundred mg daily, every day of their life. Musicians usually take 10-20 mg once every few weeks.

I can see an argument against relying on chemical aid, but safe beta-blocking drugs are not in the same category as heroin, cocaine, or alcohol.

You would be surprised to find out that professional quarterbacks also use inderal to eliminate shakes. You just won't hear them discuss it in public.

The title of this post "DOPING" suggests an unfair chemical advantage given to some musicians. Inderal does not grant any extra musical ability. It just takes away the effects of excess adrenaline, allowing the performer to play in a normal, relaxed state.

A friend of mine has nerves of steel. He is fearless in performance, and a stunning performer. Turns out he has high blood pressure and has to take several hundred mgs of inderal daily--So that's his secret! Kidding--he has done the work and is a great player to begin with.

[ThomasDodd]

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

So be it. But I disagree with it using it.

Treating a problem the hinder your live in a sever way is one thing. So people that suffer panic attacks, or hother problems that leave you unable to function in society should get treatment.

But for a professional, or would be professional, to use something like this to do their job? It just seams unprofessional to me. What about an athelete taking an adrenaline booster prior to a performance? I see it the same. Using a chemical to modify your natural condition for an improved erformance. Wether it boost or reduces something doesn't matter.

That's not to say that someone taking Inderal for a heart condition, or perscribed it for a more general anxiety problem should not be allowed to perform. Just using it only to fight performance related anxiety, and not other reason is the problem.

It's a more general trend in the country that bothers me. Taking a pill as a quick fix instead of actually working on the problems. Too many kids are given pills for ADD (or whatever they call it now) instead of working on the behavior issues. Many teens and adult ar give pills for depression instead of working on the problem. In some cases the pills are warranted, but not as often as they are used. Case in point, Had I been in grade school in the 90's instead of the 70's, I would have been give some pill for hyperactivity. Instead I learned to control it with help fom my parents and teachers. Now I've either out grown it or control has become second nature, because I don't have the problems today. Has I been given a pill, I likey would still be taking it.

[ThomasDodd]

I have tried theater, and do get stage fright. I cannot breather and my voice looses all power. In normal situations my voice carries too well, and have to actively keep it down. That's why theater was suggested.

For argument's sake, what if you were driven to become an actor. You loved acting more than anything else. You studied with the best actors alive, read every article, spent hours browsing ActNet ;) , and did everything you could be to become a great actor. In front of the mirror, you were even more convincing than Anthony Hopkins.

No matter what you did, however, your knees shook whenever you set foot on stage, and you developed a stammer. Nobody was willing to offer you a job and you had to resort to greeting at WalMart.

I would have given up on acting long before that time and delved into my other interests. I still wonder sometimes if I should have persued action or music as a profession. Should I have gotten help to get to the point I could perform? Might I still need to someday anyway?

Those are the "what if" question we all ask ourselves as we go through life. I'm certain I'm where God intended me to be, doing what he wants me to (mostly). Had He wanted me to be an actor or musician, He would have either not given me the stage-fright or or led me to overcome the problem.

[Mudman]

Case in point, Had I been in grade school in the 90's instead of the 70's, I would have been give some pill for hyperactivity. Instead I learned to control it with help fom my parents and teachers. Now I've either out grown it or control has become second nature, because I don't have the problems today. Has I been given a pill, I likey would still be taking it.

I agree.

First, exhaust all other possible remedies. As a last resort, try medication.

Successful performances with inderal can lead to successful performances without inderal.

[Lew]

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

So be it. But I disagree with it using it.

Treating a problem the hinder your live in a sever way is one thing. So people that suffer panic attacks, or hother problems that leave you unable to function in society should get treatment.

But for a professional, or would be professional, to use something like this to do their job? It just seams unprofessional to me. What about an athelete taking an adrenaline booster prior to a performance? I see it the same. Using a chemical to modify your natural condition for an improved erformance. Wether it boost or reduces something doesn't matter.
...

Your argument holds no water for me. A musician who can perform beautifully in practice, but for whom performance anxiety would be a major barrier to performing in public isn't cheating if medication can help. The resulting performance with the medication is not any better than they could otherwise perform, it just allows them to perform up to their potential. And besides, since when has music become a competition?

OK, it is a competition to the extent that one must audition, and "beat" other musicians to gain the right to play in a certain group, but even then I don't see it as cheating in any way. The objective is to have the best performing musicians available in the group, or at least the ones who's performance fits the vision of the musical director.

An athelete using steroids, or adrenelin, or blood doping will perform better than they would otherwise be able to. This isn't exactly true for a musician. I equate it to an asthmatic or a diabetic athelete. Both can take medication to control these conditions and still compete fairly because it isn't giving them abilities that they otherwise didn't have. It is only allowing them to use the abilities that they do have.

This is only my opinion, but you're wrong and I'm right!

[Mudman]

But for a professional, or would be professional, to use something like this to do their job? It just seams unprofessional to me. What about an athelete taking an adrenaline booster prior to a performance? I see it the same. Using a chemical to modify your natural condition for an improved performance. Wether it boost or reduces something doesn't matter.

Devil's Advocate Alert

Combat pilots take speed in order to stay awake on long missions. Should the Air Force only hire insomniacs (or people who may have the genetic disposition to staying awake on long flights)? Should orchestras only hire those people who are fortunate enough to have no nerve problems?

All in good humour,

Mudman

[WoodSheddin]

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

So be it. But I disagree with it using it.

I can respect that.

I was just wanting to help dispel some of the common misunderstandings of what beta blockers do and how they are used.

[ThomasDodd]

So Thomas, you eat like a horse and don't get fat?
I hate you.

More like, a bird (which consumes more pounds of food per pound of body weight than most animals). It's been said I eat the horse. Then there's the hollow leg (or 2) theory my mother started.

I'm just hoping my metabolism doesn't slow down too much, too soon

FWIW, I was 4'9" at 140lbs in grade school. Then I grew a foot and gained no weight

[MaryAnn]

bump

[MaryAnn]

bump

[ThomasDodd]

I suppose you don't take any meds when you have the flu? You don't drink coffee to wake up in the morning? Never have a beer to relax?

Flu, not normally. Perhaps something to controll a fever. But I don't go to work wth the Flu either. I don't drink beer, prefering the taste of harer liquors. Not sure on the coffee. I start the day with a cup and a smoke, and drink coffee until after 5 most days. But when traveling I myu not have access to coffee in my room, so may not have my normal dose.

I AM an electrical engineer, 20 years after my music degree. I still love music and think I have much to offer the audience as a performer. Too bad they don't get to hear it except in my living room.

Might be a shame to lose a good engineer.

I too love music and play when I can. Not often around here though. I'm sure you do have much to offer as do the many other artists that know one knows about. My wife a graphic designer and has the talent to do less "commercial" art. But she suffers from fear of rejection, so won't show her work. That doesn't make her less of an artist, just one whose works will not be seen.

The symotoms you descibed are bad. More than enough to change your career. But, perhaps that means you were supposed to do something else in life. Just because one has the talent, ability, or desire to do something doesn't mean they will, or should. It a cold, hard fact of life, and a part of the human condition. In any give endevor, only a few are destined to succeed. The rest of us must find the thing we are ment to succeed at.

[MaryAnn]

bump

[ThomasDodd]

would have the mindset you do wrt other people's use of their legal drugs of choice.

I like my legal drugs and other have their preferences. And many condem me for at least 2 of my choices. People can take all the beta-blockers they want. I'll still disagree with using it to ovecome performace anxiety, at least for 90% of those using it. Your case my well warrant something to control it, as do many other mental illnesses warrant mediction. That's for a someone with different degrees (not a BSEE) to determine.I think in too many cases people are looking fo a quick-fix pill, instead of resolving the problem. That's what this topic is. The use of heart meds to relieve performance anxiety for professional musicians.

Also don't forget you are comparing the use of over-ther-counter drugs and natural substances in use for 1000's of years to modern, man made, chemical formulas that require a prescription. I don't rely one any of them to do my job. I can easily do without them, with not adverse effects.

[Rick Denney]

This statement is likely to cause no offense or controversy: If I have a cold, I take medicine to relieve the symptoms. I do that especially if I have to play tuba with a cold. I play better because my nose is not running.

It would appear to me that Inderal is the sort of drug that relieves symptoms--very specific physical symptoms. It is not a performance-enhancing drug like EPO for cyclists or steroids for weightlifters. It relieves symptoms of a physical condition that would otherwise impair performance.

The above statement restated: If I have excessive perspiration, shallowness of breath, a pounding heart, and blurred vision as a result of the release of adrenaline, I can take medicine to relieve the symptoms. I do that especially if I have to play the tuba with those symptoms. I play better because I can see the music and take full breaths.

I see no moral difference in those two statements.

We need to keep things in perspective: The dose recommended for musicians to control anxiety attacks is about 10 mg. Heart patients take 250-750 mg, and they do it every day.

There is a difference between psychological nervousness and a physical anxiety attack. I've suffered both as a consequence of tuba playing. The former results from knowing that I'm not up to what I'm attempting, and usually I'm pretty good at wringing out my maximum capability in spite of it. I know how to do this because I have a lot of experience overcoming that sort of anxiety. The latter is physically debilitating, keeping me from performaning anywhere close to what I could do 10 times out of 10 in the practice room.

There is not one among us who has not recommended a prescription drug to a friend with symptoms, even though we aren't doctors. In every case, the assumption is that they will go to their doctor and ask about it, in which case the doctor will do the right thing. That is not at all the same thing as reaching into one's medicine cabinet and handing a pill to the other person, which is indeed against the law.

The difference between this and sports is that in sports, the competition and seeing who will win and lose is the sole purpose for the activity. Music is not supposed to be competitive, not even during an audition. The audition is supposed to reveal who has the superior skills so that those skills may be coopted by the orchestra for the purpose of presenting excellent music.

Any drug, even common over-the-counter drugs, can be abused and harmful if abused. But that doesn't make them immoral for use to cure specific physical conditions. And if it does, then there should be no drugs. Reductio ad absurdum.

Rick "who has never taken Inderal but who has wished he had on a couple of occasions" Denney

[tubatooter1940]

I hate to see any player jump so quickly to use a drug to combat anxiety.A few butterflies before a performance are good in that you care
about playing well and will be on your toes.No performance anxiety at all
may lead to a flat uninspired performance.After 50 years on stage I still
feel a twinge before I go on,but soon after the first tune starts,the "ham"
rises to the surface and I'm having a hell of a good time.
I am not one to preach against doping since so many gallons of beer
have passed thrugh my tuba.One or two beers seem to put me in "party
mode"but more than one per set makes my playing taper off exponentially.
Any drug will come home to roost and repeated use will cost heavily.
What drugs to take in order to play well are any individual's decision.
I pray young ones will try to go without them and only medicate to
temporarily deal with a situation.
I wonder why beer never makes my valves stick.
Dennis Gray

[Rick Denney]

I hate to see any player jump so quickly to use a drug to combat anxiety.A few butterflies before a performance are good in that you care
about playing well and will be on your toes.

Dennis, I don't think you'll find anyone that disagrees. But we aren't talking about a few butterflies. Many suffer from full-scale panic attacks. I've had this happen twice when playing tuba. The first time, I played through it and survived, though it had a noticeably negative effect on my playing until the effects of the adrenaline wore off. That was years ago.

The second time, much more recent, it resulted in botching a solo during a band performance. I was able to play that lick 10 times out of 10 in the practice room.

A little adrenaline sharpens us up, commands our best concentration, and adds energy to what we do. But too much adrenaline is debilitating.

Remember that adrenaline is a chemical hormone whose objective is to help us out of danger. By danger, I mean getting away from that wild animal or surviving that encounter with an enemy soldier. The fight-or-flight panic response for which we need adrenaline isn't appropriate for performing music, especially music that demands a sensitive approach. We can't fight, and we can't flee. We have to stand there and play sensitive music beautifully, while our hands are shaking in half-inch tremors and our chest is so tight we can't take in a full, relaxed breath. Thus, an internal overdose of adrenaline is a powerful drug with powerful effects. The beta blocker prevents the adrenaline overdose, so that we can do what we already know how to do, or so that we fail at doing what we don't know how to do, but in each case without those physical symptoms.

Rick "suggesting that not all drugs come from the drug store" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

Dennis, I don't think you'll find anyone that disagrees. But we aren't talking about a few butterflies. Many suffer from full-scale panic attacks. I've had this happen twice when playing tuba. The first time, I played through it and survived, though it had a noticeably negative effect on my playing until the effects of the adrenaline wore off. That was years ago.

If it's a problem, you go see a reputable doctor. You and the doctor should then decide a course of treatment. Going in wanting a pill, or worse, a paerticular pill, taints the discussion. There may well be better treatment for you condition, but if you think only a pill, or only a particular pill will help, that reduces the effacacy<sp?> of other treatments. Kind of a reverse placebo effect.

[ThomasDodd]

So you oppose drug company advertising that tell people to "ask their doctor about" Zocor/Viagra/Methamphetamine/etc.?

Most of the time, yes. Seams to me the companies did fine for a long time without those adds.

I really hate the commercials for treatments for stuff that I've never heard of. What the hell is "Acid Reflux"? When did that come about? And try explaining what "male enhancement" is to a 10 year old.

[Doug@GT]

I really hate the commercials for treatments for stuff that I've never heard of. What the hell is "Acid Reflux"? When did that come about?

Acid Reflux is very real. My dad has it. He didn't "discover" it from a commercial either. His was actually diagnosed.

Severe acid reflux can cause symptoms very similar to a heart attack. In fact, that what my dad originially thought was going on. It can also be triggered by the most unusual things, such as hard peppermint candy (go figure).

It's a chromic condition for some, and can destroy the lining of your esophagus. My dad's case isn't that bad, but he definitely has to use stronger-than-normal antacids.

Anyway, just wanted to set that straight. I agree with you all on TV ads.

Doug "who thinks we shouldn't knock a real condition just because advertisers are dumb"