Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:25 am

In the Robert King edition (by Chester Roberts) on the last line of the last page (#43) it says "pieghevole". I have checked several musical dictionaries and have not found that word.

My guess is that it means something like "a piacera". Wikipedia has something in Italian, but when translated it seems to be about folding bicycles.

There must be someone in this extraordinarily learned bunch who can tell me what it means. Maybe someone in MA could ask Chester? (I understand that he is still playing in a band, but I don't know how to get in touch with the guy who told me.)

Tubainsauga · Post by **Tubainsauga** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:49 am

From the translations I kind find it means everything from folding to pliable, so I suspect the meaning is freely or flexible? Kind of cadenza like maybe? At least that's what I'd do (though I have to confess to not having made it to number 43 yet).

Todd S. Malicoate · Post by **Todd S. Malicoate** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:59 am

Pieghevole = "collapsing"

In a musical context, the editor (or composer, perhaps) most likely wishes for the tempo and volume to gradually decrease to the end of the piece.

Pozzie · Post by **Pozzie** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:39 am

Hi,
I'm Italian, but I never read the term pieghevole in a musical contex (I've not your Bordogni edition)... It's a unusual indication!

Pieghevole means literally "folding"...

In a musical contex, if it's related to tempo I suppose it stand for "flexible", "alterable". In Italian it could be "a piacere".
If it's related to dynamics, maybe the correct interpretation is just "collapsing", but I'm not so sure.

For certain it's a very strange and unusual musical term!

JB · Post by JB » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:57 am

Art Hovey wrote:In the Robert King edition (by Chester Roberts) on the last line of the last page (#43) it says "pieghevole". I have checked several musical dictionaries and have not found that word.

My guess is that it means something like "a piacera". Wikipedia has something in Italian, but when translated it seems to be about folding bicycles.

There must be someone in this extraordinarily learned bunch who can tell me what it means. Maybe someone in MA could ask Chester? (I understand that he is still playing in a band, but I don't know how to get in touch with the guy who told me.)

[1] Perhaps David A. Schwartz would be able to help as a result of his Bordogni research and publishing. I have found him to be very courteous and prompt in replying with the few inquiries I have had regarding Bordogni and the Vocalises.

dschwar at verizon dot net

http://mysite.verizon.net/~dschwar/index.html

[2] Or maybe Edwin Anderson could assist, as he has done research for his own published editions. (retired faculty member of Indiana University School of Music).

hardbrassmedia at yahoo dot com

http://www.hardbrassmedia.com/bordogni.html

[3] Michael Mulcahy, trombonist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, has edited and annotated a new edition of the Bordogni vocalises. I believe he can be contacted through the CSO office.

[4] Amy Salo did some additional Bordogni research (particularly regarding ornamentation). I do not have current contact info for her, and her website link seems to be a dead link (or temporarily down)

http://www.amysalo.com

Please share if you find a definitive answer.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:23 pm

If you interpret the term as folding, then you might find references to relevant tubas on this page:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34417&start=12

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:41 am

my favorite in the tuba edition is still "allegretto con garbo"

David · Post by **David** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:23 am

eupher61 wrote:my favorite in the tuba edition is still "allegretto con garbo"

as in Gretta?

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:46 pm

David wrote:
eupher61 wrote:my favorite in the tuba edition is still "allegretto con garbo"
as in Gretta?

I don't think so, but that's what I figured for a long time. Someone once found a definition of "con garbo" and showed it to me, but I don't remember what it is/was at all.

David · Post by **David** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:15 am

haha. I was of course joking

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001256/" target="_blank

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:16 am

"con garbo" is in my tattered pocket musical dictionary; it means "gracefully".

Greta Garbo's original name was Greta Lovisa Gustafsson. Perhaps Mauritz Stiller knew what he was doing when he gave her the stage name. This was way before Johnny Rotten, even before Dave Tough.

Thanks for the info about "pieghevole". Now it makes perfect sense.
What an amazing resource we have here!

Pozzie · Post by **Pozzie** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:32 am

Art Hovey wrote:"con garbo" is in my tattered pocket musical dictionary; it means "gracefully".

Yes, I confirm: con garbo means gracefully

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:35 am

Pozzie wrote:
Art Hovey wrote:"con garbo" is in my tattered pocket musical dictionary; it means "gracefully".
Yes, I confirm: con garbo means gracefully

Sure it doesn’t say gracekelly?

Pozzie · Post by **Pozzie** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:46 am

imperialbari wrote:
Pozzie wrote:
Art Hovey wrote:"con garbo" is in my tattered pocket musical dictionary; it means "gracefully".
Yes, I confirm: con garbo means gracefully
Sure it doesn’t say gracekelly?

...Or maybe gracekellyberg!

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:04 am

Pozzie wrote:
Pozzie wrote:
Art Hovey wrote:"con garbo" is in my tattered pocket musical dictionary; it means "gracefully".
Yes, I confirm: con garbo means gracefully
Sure it doesn’t say gracekelly?
...Or maybe gracekellyberg!

Could only be said by somebody too young to know Albert’s mommy.

Pozzie · Post by **Pozzie** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:27 am

imperialbari wrote: ...Or maybe gracekellyberg!

Could only be said by somebody too young to know Albert’s mommy.[/quote]
I'm young, but I know Grace Kelly. It was just a pun!

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:35 am

Pozzie wrote:
imperialbari wrote: ...Or maybe gracekellyberg!
Could only be said by somebody too young to know Albert’s mommy.

I'm young, but I know Grace Kelly. It was just a pun![/quote]

How comes? Never guessed that? Glitter gold?

David Schwartz · Post by **David Schwartz** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:53 am

JB wrote: Perhaps David A. Schwartz would be able to help as a result of his Bordogni research and publishing. I have found him to be very courteous and prompt in replying with the few inquiries I have had regarding Bordogni and the Vocalises.

Thanks for the kind words, JB.

Bordogni himself, and Rochut and Keith Brown also, used a piacere in this study. But Chester Roberts' whimsical sense of humor must have been operating on this last page of his 1972 edition. Chester is still full of mischief in his 88th year, but his 2009 revision, when Alphonse Leduc publishes it, will change the instruction to liberamente.

P.S. I spoke with Chester today, and he says that he had in mind, "tentatively." In his Edgren's Italian-English and English-Italian dictionary, the translation is, "very pliant and flexible."

David

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:00 am

David,
Thank you for the clarification.
What's your opinion about Bordogni's trills?
Someone here posted a reply a couple of years ago saying that they should begin on the lower note, since the stuff was written after 1800.
But to my ears they sound better starting on the upper note, and that's the way I like to play them.
I am not sure what I should tell my students who may be using them in auditions.

JB · Post by JB » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:05 am

Art Hovey wrote:David,
Thank you for the clarification.
What's your opinion about Bordogni's trills?
Someone here posted a reply a couple of years ago saying that they should begin on the lower note, since the stuff was written after 1800.
But to my ears they sound better starting on the upper note, and that's the way I like to play them.
I am not sure what I should tell my students who may be using them in auditions.

Perhaps the Amy Salo article "Bordogni's Ornaments" would be helpful.

http://www.furman.edu/depts/music/event ... mySalo.pdf

TubeNet

Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni

Re: Strange Musical Term in Bordogni