Seeking apprenticeship

[tubarnak]

Hi Tubeneters!

A reply I made to a post in the "for sale" section gave me the idea to try my luck here...

I've been a brass tech for 8 years and now have a small independant shop in Quebec City Canada. I did most of my apprenticeship in a large store in Toronto, where I had been fixing roughly 7000-8000 horns a year, and around 40-50 tuba overhauls total. Those were all school horns.
I'm also a pro machinist and I'm familiar with conventional strap and gearhead lathes, all types of millers, the Sunnen honing machine, CAD, and CNC machining and programming.

I've been (almost desperately) trying to get an apprenticeship with higher end techs to perfect my skills but was turned down every time. I would love to learn the basics of brass instrument making without having to spend 10 years in a plant, as I don't think (this being said very humbly) it takes that long to learn the basics. To perfect the skills, yes; but not to get started.

If you know of anybody that would need help with overhauls for a few weeks, maybe a few months, or know of a temporary position open somewhere, especially lower brass, PLEASE let me know!
I would also pay a tech his normal fee to let me learn step up techniques like optimal chem cleaning, buffing entire horns to a mirror finish, lacquering techniques, valve refitting etc.

I was inpired to pursue perfection by techs who have posted on this forum and I hope to be able to offer my services to this community too one day...

[bort]

Take a course?

http://www.degreeers.com/Badger_State_R ... chool.html" target="_blank

Not free, but sounds fun.

[bort]

Another option:

http://www.redwingmusicrepair.org/band/overview.html" target="_blank

Any Red Wing alumni here? It's always sounded like fun...and my wife-to-be is even from MN...tempting.

[tubarnak]

Take a course?

http://www.degreeers.com/Badger_State_R ... chool.html

Not free, but sounds fun.

He is already WAY beyond that rather scant program. An apprenticeship will take you much farther than most courses of study. He wants to learn to design and build instruments himself, not fix them, which is already his profession.

I did go through the brass portion of MIR at Keyano College, AB. I then worked here in Quebec for a year before moving to Toronto.
There, I worked an AVERAGE of 45 hours a week for 49 weeks a year. In the summer at the end of the week we would often do a blitz and work till 2-3 in the morning (I can prove that) A regular chem cleaning on a trumpet or a tbone with a few dents taken out and maybe a few solder joints or slight handslide tweaking (about 50% of my work) would take me at most 30min. per horn.

In the summer, the instruments were chem cleaned by a bunch of students before getting to me so fixing is all I had to focus on. There was the occasional banged up horn or euph that would take a day or two to rebuild...
I did most of my tuba overhauls in 2 days.

Back in the days I would have done Allied training but they don't do that anymore. I don't know if Badger State still does apprenticeships either.

I know I'm asking for much but I CAN GIVE AT LEAST AS MUCH!

This did take some clarification, I recognize it may have sounded presumptuous... But I assure you it's not. For the last 2 years I have been working in excess of 70 hours a week to get my shop running and I'm still doing more than 40 since I quit my day job because I'm now trying to open a full brass specialty shop.

Thanks for letting me add this!

[Dan Schultz]

In 2000, Canadians worked an average of 1,332 hours per year.

If you claim to have repaired about 8,000 horns a year, you would have had to repair a horn every 20 minutes. ....

Hey, Wade! That's six horns an hour or about TEN minutes each. Not 20 minutes each. It's even faster than you thought!

[bort]

Whoops...thanks for the clarification, Wade. I should have read more carefully. Sorry tubarnak!

[timdicarlo]

Another option:

http://www.redwingmusicrepair.org/band/overview.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Any Red Wing alumni here? It's always sounded like fun...and my wife-to-be is even from MN...tempting.

Sorry to deviate slightly from the topic, but is that school a good option for getting a start in the trade? I'm seriously considering going once I get my current degree, and whether it's fantastic or a waste of time I'd appreciate the input.

[tubarnak]

Sorry if I may sound on the defensive mode but I feel my credibility is at stake here...and all techs know credibility is as important, if not more, than skill in that business!

I said I did 7000-8000 horns a year, roughly. We counted instruments coming in for summer repairs and I know I did over 5000 in my first summer working there. The goal of these summer repairs was getting all of those horns back into schools with the time and hands we had then and most repairs were what is called "play condition". All instruments were chem cleaned prior to repair work and a lot only needed minor repairs (meaning some less then 10min. bench time). Also, while an instrument is in the tank, there is time for 2-3 more disassemblies, even some dent work. We were two brass techs and the other guy, more experienced, tackled the harder stuff.
Summers were hectic but I don't think 2000-3000 horns for the rest of the year looks insane OR exagerated.

OK, OK, this is sounding more and more like digging myself in... I don't usually take myself so seriously I guess that was a sensitive nerve...

I guess I was trained in a busy shop, that's all... One that has the largest rental fleet in Canada - more than 12000 instruments . I don't know the exact proportion of these instruments to the school horns seen there every year but I know it's a fraction of it!

[tubarnak]

Another option:

http://www.redwingmusicrepair.org/band/overview.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Any Red Wing alumni here? It's always sounded like fun...and my wife-to-be is even from MN...tempting.

Sorry to deviate slightly from the topic, but is that school a good option for getting a start in the trade? I'm seriously considering going once I get my current degree, and whether it's fantastic or a waste of time I'd appreciate the input.

Red Wing IS a great way to get started IMO. The techs are very respected members of the MIR community and sought after clinicians at the annual convention of the National Association of Band Instrument Repair Techs or NAPBIRT. There isn't enough time in 3 years to see and do everything you'll have to do in the market but you'll have a good solid base and will have learned to be adaptative and creative, along with getting a strong set of basic skills.

This is not a commercial ad, just the personal opinion of a tech who has been to some of these clinics...

[Mike-ICR]

I can vouch for the volume done by the shop mentioned. I went to school (Keyano) with many of the their techs. I don't know how many horns they can fix in ten minutes but I know the guy who does the clarinet/flute rental repairs only and he is roughly as busy as I am. I run a one-man brass/woodwind shop in the largest northern Ontario city and service horns from all over the region. I don't know how many horns I fixed this year.

Wade has a good point. The horn makers are not on TubeNet. There are a few horn builders here(they make very little from scratch). Even if you found a maker that will show you the ropes they would probably specialize in one or a few instruments and tuba/low brass probably won't be it.

There are no Canadian makers that I know of. A few of us build but the volume isn't worth having an apprentice. I think the best brass guy I've met (in Canada) is based in Toronto. He runs a small, few man shop(brass only?) and gets brass work shipped from all corners of the country. He might be hiring but I doubt he would be willing to train eventual competition and you probably won't get what you need out of the experience.

Good luck.

[tubarnak]

Well, that is why I said I would "try my luck here"...
Thank you The Elephant for putting up with me and calmly but effectively explaining to me what are the errors I made with my approach.
This being said, it's the first time I ever threw numbers referring to horns I could get through in a certain period of time...I now understand that was a mistake since I'm sure you weren't the only ones to roll your eyes reading my posts...

And you are not really looking for an apprenticeship. You need a JOB.

I did have a job and even with the volume of work I went through, I would still have fixed school horns for the rest of my carreer. The kind of work I'm aiming for is what Mr Oberloh is doing in Seattle and he apprenticed under a master before getting his own shop. I don't know how old he is but I believe he didn't spend 20 years in a factory to get where he is. I know this also sounds presumptuous...He's the first one to have turned me down.

Wasn't Mr Minnick entirely self-taught?

There are no Canadian makers that I know of. A few of us build but the volume isn't worth having an apprentice. I think the best brass guy I've met (in Canada) is based in Toronto. He runs a small, few man shop(brass only?) and gets brass work shipped from all corners of the country. He might be hiring but I doubt he would be willing to train eventual competition and you probably won't get what you need out of the experience.

You might be referring to Mr Partch, my other great inspiration... I went down to his shop a few times and asked him to take me in more than once, same result... I'm still sending him work when I feel it's out of my ball park...
There used to be a trombone maker in BC, called Joe Debruycker I think, who came from Europe. He passed away I think and his equipement got liquidated. Huttl also had a factory in eastern Canada for a while.
My point IS there are no Canadian instrument makers currently...

Of course an internship would be great but I would also pay to just look over a tech's shoulder while he's performing something like a tuba overhaul. Many of whom I have asked this told me they didn't want to sharee their secrets, or didn't want to see me become a competitor or just that they didn't like being watched while they were working.

I realise now my approach hasn't changed much over the years and I'm getting the same results.

Thank you all for your input!

[The Big Ben]

The kind of work I'm aiming for is what Mr Oberloh is doing in Seattle and he apprenticed under a master before getting his own shop. I don't know how old he is but I believe he didn't spend 20 years in a factory to get where he is. I know this also sounds presumptuous...He's the first one to have turned me down.

BTW: Dan is a journeyman silversmith and machinist as well as a masterful horn mechanic. He has a large skill set.

[tubarnak]

From what I have seen in the numerous projects he has posted on his website, Mr Oberloh's set of skills and equipment allow him to fabricate pistons, piston casings and caps, rotor valves, bells, branches and bows, all types of braces, tuning slides and leadpipes. The only thing I haven't seen him make so far is trombone slides and mouthpieces...I would say this brings him pretty close to being able to make an entire instrument... I'm sure he has extensive notions of acoustical physics that would enable him to make great sounding horns but right now he's making a good living with his passion: fixing and restoring musical instruments.

He has been an inspiration for many years and he was the one to persuade me to study Mech. Engineering Technology. Thanks to him, I'm now also a professional machinist and MechEng conceptor and I'm very familiar with most conventional lathes and millers and grinders, honing machines, as well as with CNC machining and programming, coordinate measuring machines, 3D design and modeling, molding and casting processes and chemical and heat treatments. So in THEORY, my background allows me to make most of this stuff but I'm FAR from being able to apply this theory to musical instrument making and, say, spin a bell or form a correctly tapered bell or mouthpipe or horn body...
I'd just like to meet a mentor who would let me visit for a few weeks at a time and simply pass on this kind of knowledge to me... with or without monetary or labor compensation...

Meanwhile, I would also like to get a chance to work on my repair skills, so I can offer a better service to my clientele...

[Mike-ICR]

A lot of people can do a lot of things... I can change the oil in my car but I'm not a lube tech. Sure Dan can make whatever he needs whenever he needs it but that doesn't he's a pro bell spinner or valve set maker. He does wonderful work, don't get me wrong, his results are usually as good or better than factory.

Have you approached the US makers like Kanstul or the Elkart companies? They probably won't be interested in a 3 week visit but they may need someone in their repair shops and you could snoop from there for a year or so.

[The Big Ben]

Have you approached the US makers like Kanstul or the Elkart companies? They probably won't be interested in a 3 week visit but they may need someone in their repair shops and you could snoop from there for a year or so.

Might be risky. I used to work in a meat market and now don't really care to eat much meat.

[tubarnak]

A lot of people can do a lot of things... I can change the oil in my car but I'm not a lube tech. Sure Dan can make whatever he needs whenever he needs it but that doesn't he's a pro bell spinner or valve set maker. He does wonderful work, don't get me wrong, his results are usually as good or better than factory.

Have you approached the US makers like Kanstul or the Elkart companies? They probably won't be interested in a 3 week visit but they may need someone in their repair shops and you could snoop from there for a year or so.

Very true; but that's way closer to my goal than where I'm at right now...
I also found 3-year school programs in Germany which go through the basic skills of brass instrument making and after the program, you get a chance to pursue a Master Craftsman certificate after having done sufficient intern time in a shop. So this means 4-6 years plus the time needed to become very proficient in German...
What I'm looking for right now is an alternative to this. If nothing else works this is probably the way I'll explore.
Well; I was offered a job by Zig Kanstul, which I respectfully declined due to the immense changes I would have had to do in my life at that time...
That was a possibility for a permanent position and I was still a rookie by then, I would probably still be buffing tuning slides by now but I still regret that decision...

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Seeking an apprenticeship is really tough, They typically don't simply fall into ones lap. I was lucky (sort of) but I had to pay some serious dues. How much are you willing pay? If you are willing and can afford the cost in time, money and your own personal hide, I say go for it!

Building instruments and performing high end restorations are not really the same line of work. Restoration and repair rely on the hand skills of the craftsperson and the knowledge of tooling, materials and the many hand working processes. It also required a lot more experience and training. Standard production of brass instruments is dictated by the tooling, the worker is simply processing the materials and assembling the parts. Yes, there are parts of the production process that calls for a high degree of skill such as spinning bells and polishing. Most other stages of manufacturing can be learned relatively quick. If you mess up a part, you simply grab another and proceed with the job. This approach does not work so well when you are restoring a ninety year old double french horn bell. Soldering new instruments is fairly straight forward and the skills can be picked up relatively quickly. Soldering old fragile instruments is done with considerably more care and forethought. This is not to take anything away from the instrument makers, I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of them. I am just pointing out some of the differences.


I began my pursuit of the trade when I was about fourteen (or there about). That was when I settled on the trade of being a band instrument Tech. I would eventually focus on the more complex and difficult work but you have to walk before you can run. My years of training included the time I studied metal fabrication (5 years), this included machine shop training, welding/brazing, foundry work. Tech school was next; They called it "trade school" then (2 1/2 years). This is when I started working on instrument exclusively. I also studied luthier work over three summers. Knowing how to perform standard repairs on violins and guitars was handy and re-hairing bows provided me with some very decent paychecks in those first years on the job. I then went to work in the silver smithing and electroplating industry (1 1/2 years) This was a valuable experience but proved very hazardous to my health, a past that I don't ever want to repeat. I then was able to land a position with a large music company that hired a Master Journeyman (trained and worked for CG Conn and others as a factory Repair Tech, 30+ yrs experience at the time) to oversee my formal apprenticeship (5 years). While doing so I eventually became the Forman of the shop. I enjoyed this period in spite of the ups and downs. Apprenticeships like the one I had, did not just involve me working there. I studied my *** off. I was tested regularly. My work was inspected and graded by the Master and my Employers. I often worked on projects that provided little in the way of $$ but that was expected. When I completed my obligations to the company and proved my skills, I received my recognition as a full journeyman. The next two years after having demonstrated my metal spinning, plating, engraving and fabrication skills, I was given a hand shake by my teacher and received my recognition by him as a Master-Journeyman. No diploma, no document just a firm hand shake from Master Repair man Mr. West and being told how proud he was of me. The hug from my Dad and the pride in my Parents and Grand parent's eyes was even better the day I officialy opened my own business, best experience I could ever hope for. A few years later, I started training my own employees but I don't think I could ever do as good a job as those who shared there knowledge with me and provided the support for that thick skulled young man so many years ago.

My basic time line so far;


Late 1970s: start preparing and learning skills that will be of use in the trade.

1980s: Learn the trade, study a lot, develop and build on my basic skills. Work and grow up.

1990s: Leap of faith; build my own shop, learn to run a business, train work staff, add more to skill sets, make a lot of mistakes and learn from them. Work and produce more then I ever did.

2000s: Take more risks, experiment. Continue to study and add to skill sets...

Not sure if my ramblings are of help but maybe somthing to ponder. Time to get back to work. Best of luck with your endeavor.

Daniel C. Oberloh

[tubarnak]

There must be a reason why I shouldn't post a reply... TWICE I took a good hour to figure out how to phrase it, write it and TWICE have I been logged off automatically and LOST EVERYTHING!!!

Thank you so much for replying (again) Mr Oberloh, it really means a lot to me. Every reply I got helped me figuring out what I really wanted but this last one gave me an insight on what had to be accomplished to get there.

Seeking an apprenticeship is really tough, They typically don't simply fall into ones lap. I was lucky (sort of) but I had to pay some serious dues. How much are you willing pay? If you are willing and can afford the cost in time, money and your own personal hide, I say go for it!

I figured out I couldn't give 5-7 years full time to perfect my skills outside of the country since I already have a running business and I'm the only one around here who can offer what I'm offering.

I'll never have to restore a 90 year old horn to better than factory specs here and beat up school horns will always be my bread and butter but there is not enough school work in the region for a brass specialist, not even enough work if you count in all the pro work; this is why I'd like to be able to buy beaters and restore them, for the pleasure of seeing them come back to life and hopefully make a few bucks doing it.

For that I need a stronger set of repair skills and some manufacturing skills, including sheet metal work, spinning, slide drawing, factory finish polishing and lacquering, among other things.

A lot of this can be learned through normal channels like NAPBIRT conventions, courses and clinics but would take 10 years and 50000$ worth of fees and transportation to match a few weeks spent with a master, spent exclusively on specific aspects of brass work.
Some of these skills are not taught through these channels and have to be learned through a skilled craftsman who's willing to share his experience, for a monetary or labor compensation or not.

That's why by posting this topic here I was casting a line, hoping to get something like " Sure, we could take you in for a week or two, providing you pay for the time you're costing the shop" but I guess it's more complicated than that... It all seems so simple in my head...

What I'd like to be able to accomplish is something like the restorations performed on the Miraphone 186's you have posted on your website. Everytime I visit your page on "Tony's tuba" it brings a tear to my eye in contemplation...
Another line of work I'd like to explore is odd and unusual instruments. Not many people around here have the money to buy a 20000$ horn to play it 4 times a year; I'd like to be able to assemble or handcraft cheaper, decent sounding cimbassi or contra bones so we can play the music that needs those instruments or heck - subcontra instruments just for the fun of it!

Apprenticeships like the one I had, did not just involve me working there. I studied my *** off.

What were your sources? Where to start? Are these sources available to the grand public? I bought and went through every book I could find on the history of brass instruments, brass makers, acoustics of musical instruments, properties of materials, old and modern manufacturing techniques but never found anything other than BIR program textbooks, clinics and conference notes and the Eric Brand Manual for instrument repair and restoration techniques.
As an example I never saw anyone use a soldering iron in any course or clinic I've attended, before I visited your website and yet, it makes perfect sense and seems like THE technique to use in thin sheet metal soldering applications. This is the stuff I'm talking about...

Wow, long post, sorry about that!

So again, thank you all so much for taking the time to reply!
I'll go back to figuring out how to get where I want to be.