Identifying B&S Perantucci model equivalent?

[arpthark]

Hey guys,

Currently I am playing on a school-owned B&S Perantucci F tuba. I was wondering if anyone could help me identify it in terms of PT-XX number. It was purchased in the early-to-mid 1990's, has the blue B&S logo on the tuning slide, has five valves (all right hand) and says this on the bell:

"B&S Markneukirchen-Klingenthal

Perantucci Model
Made in German Democratic Republic"

The leadpipe is removable (was this just to facilitate repairs or is there another purpose for this feature?) and the bell measures approx. 16.5".

Links to pictures:
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u259 ... 0_1781.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u259 ... 0_1782.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u259 ... 0_1783.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank

The reason I ask is because I really like the way this horn plays and would be interested in pursuing its modern equivalent.

Many thanks!

[imperialbari]

The engraving would place the production pre the German re-unification of October 3rd 1990.

There use to be a model with a wider bore leadpipe and one with a more narrow bore leadpipe. This model might have been prepared for an easy conversion.

My Yahoo based brass galleries have some B&S catalogue material from 1985 and some from closer to 2000. the index is here:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... %20format/

Klaus

[arpthark]

Thanks for all your help!

The instrument pictured is hand-made. The sound has (some people use a word...) "core" (I prefer the word "resonance") in its sound, whereas the newly-produced versions seem to sound "hollow" to many.

Why do you figure that is? Because the pictured model was hand-made and current ones are not, or are there other aspects of production that have been changed?

[bort]

Make your school an offer. (I'll trade you a *shiny* new PT-___ for this old, dull ____.)

[arpthark]

Make your school an offer. (I'll trade you a *shiny* new PT-___ for this old, dull ____.)

We also have a 1950's-vintage Meinl-Weston F tuba with a 4+2 setup.. except the 6th rotor snapped off, so now it's more of a 4+1. Everyone calls it (and has been calling it for years) "The Flowerpot." You can probably guess why. If you wanted to trade a shiny new PT-___ for THAT... I think Dr. Gray would jump all over that offer.

[Rick Denney]

It may be similar to what is now called a PT-10, or it may be more like what used to be called a Symphonie. The bore of the first and fifth slides will tell that tale. The Symphonie used a 17mm bore for the fifth valve (and sixth, if there is one), 18mm for the first, 19mm for the second, 20 for the third, and 21 for the fourth. On the PT-10, the first and fifth valves have the same 19mm bore as the second valve.

The original Perantucci models came with two leadpipes--that's why yours is removable.

I seem to recall that Perantoni and Tucci started working with B&S in the early 80's, with the first Perantucci F tuba coming in about 1984. I don't recall the source of that memory, however, so I make no guarantees. Klaus is, of course, right that this one predates unification. That would suggest that it was made during the 80's. Many of the B&S F tubas marked "Symphonie" were made during the 70's. Klaus can remind us, but I think B&S as a brand was created by the East German Communist government in the 60's, though they were just renaming craftspeople who were already there.

I don't think it's the lack of handmade bows that fully account for the hollowness that I sense in modern B&S F tubas, but rather the larger bores and larger leadpipes. My post-unification (barely) 6-valve B&S has Symphonie dimensions and plays very similarly to my previous 5-valve Symphonie. They weren't identical, but they were nearly so, especially compared to current PT models with larger dimensions. You can order the instrument with the Symphonie dimensions, either labeled as a PT-9 or as a 3099/1-L (as shown on the German site--follow the VMI link on the Shops page).

Rick "enjoy your time with one of the great F tubas" Denney

[Wyvern]

If you can find a serial number on the tuba (possibly on the underside of the leadpipe), then Robert Tucci may well be able to tell you which model it is and its exact age. I have found him very helpful in the past.

You can contact him via his shop http://www.hornboerse.de/cgi-bin/shop/l ... 22880&ls=e

Regarding the playability of the various models of B&S PT F tubas - I would suggest you try yourself and see what you think. Bloke and Rick prefer the older models, but other players are quite happy with the modern larger bore models.

Jonathan "who enjoys the wonderful tone of his PT-15 every time he plays it"

[Wyvern]

On the PT-10, the first and fifth valves have the same 19mm bore as the second valve.

That is not the case for the PT-15. I have just checked mine and the 5th valve is 18mm and the 1st and 2nd valves both 19mm bore.

[arpthark]

I've sent Mr. Tucci an email and hopefully he will respond soon. I lack the tools required right now for me to measure the bore, but using some crude methods (mixing and matching slides) I've discovered that the fifth valve slide has a lot of "play" when I put it in the first slide's receiver, and that the 2nd and 1st valves seem to fit each others' receivers, which seems to be closer to what Jonathan described. I will let you know when I receive word from Mr. Tucci.

Many many thanks for all your help!

[imperialbari]

B&S 1985 cat page.jpg

[imperialbari]

B&S+PT+and+Culbertson+F+tubas+from+a+circa+1996+catalogue_Page_1.jpg

B&S+PT+and+Culbertson+F+tubas+from+a+circa+1996+catalogue_Page_2.jpg

[Bob Kolada]

There's a very good chance that instrument plays better than it's modern equivalent, the "PT-10" (I think...)

There's an even better chance that any other F tuba plays better than a PT F tuba....

[arpthark]

Interesting opinions and history offered here! I've only played a handful of F tubas (none of them being modern PTs), so I really can't weigh in, but I'll definitely try to keep an open mind when I secure the funds to go F tuba shopping/hunting. Out of the few that I have played, besides this B&S, I really liked the MW 45-SLZ. Anyone want to chime in with opinions on it while I wait for a reply from Mr. Tucci?

[Bob Kolada]

There's a very good chance that instrument plays better than it's modern equivalent, the "PT-10" (I think...)

There's an even better chance that any other F tuba plays better than a PT F tuba....

nah...I'd scuffle by with a modern PT-10 before I would trip over myself with a Miraphone 181-F, a Yamaha 621, or a Yamaha 822, or even a Miraphone 281-F (great intonation, but "stiff")...

I'm completely the opposite, and (in an odd contrast to your experiences) all the Yamaha F's I've played have had very good intonation.... With me seemingly gradually moving to F instruments, I just may pick up an 822 someday.


Didn't you also used to hate the 2165?

[arpthark]

This is indeed the forerunner to the modern PT-10. Thanks everyone for your pictures, input and help.

You say that the PT-9 is the modern instrument with the Symphonie's specs... is this horn available with 6 valves as well? I tried to find it on the hornboerse and the B&S website, but they only list it with 5 valves.

[Wyvern]

There's something missing from those newer-made tubas besides this-or-that bore in the mouthpipe and first two valve bore sizes.

Could it be stresses caused by modern hydraulic pressing of bows???

'arpthark', When you do go to try (whichever model), play test a gold brass version if you can. They really do seem to play with a lot warmer, more lyrical tone, maybe partly because they are more handmade? The visible joins clearly show that my PT-15 is hand-hammered from sheet brass

[Rick Denney]

I've seen quite a few modern PT-9-like instruments with 6-valves. They sound as "dead" as the 5-valve versions. There's something missing from those newer-made tubas besides this-or-that bore in the mouthpipe and first two valve bore sizes.

Dead? Pffft.

The difference between my former five-valve Symphonie and my six-valve 3099--whatever (not marked PT-9 but Symphonie dimensions dated around 1990) was present but subtle, with several people playing and listening to try and find those differences (what differences I could barely detect while playing I could not hear while listening, even with pro-quality players). And the differences that were there could not be boiled down to one better and one worse. The differences between these two and other F's, however, were significant.

The one significant difference was that the newer one played in tune out of the box, without modification.

Rick "not knowing whether this instrument is more like old ones or more like newer ones" Denney

[eupher61]

I'm late on this thread, but that's a dead ringer for mine, which I bought in 1984, as a PT-10. Except, looking closer, the logo is a bit different. the"Made in GDR" line on mine is spaced quite a bit lower.

I've played a remarkable Symphonie model, which is a totally different beast. It was a singularly amazing example too.

An interchangeable leadpipe was an option, mine is fixed, though.

The serial # on mine is 0199xxx.

And, it's the horn with "the dent" that helped the trouble range.

And, and..and...and...once I get some $$ going again (please,let it happen SOON....), a Blokepiece with a #1 rim and #2 cup will be mine. Well, as soon as bloke gets it to me, after I order it. Which I haven't done yet. So, don't send it yet, bloke.