the schiller American Heritage 6 Valve Rotary F Tuba

[Diegoo]

HI, I am very happy to be in this forum
I want to buy the SCHILLER F tuba because it is very economical,
Someone has played it?
what person can talk about this?
is tuned? the keys work well?
Thanks a lot.

[bububassboner]

Played them, more than one of them. Valves kinda sucked. Slides were really rough. The major problem was pitch. Open F was just awful. Im the kind of guy that doesn't like to use alternate fingerings for what should be the tuning note of a horn. The sound on this really wasn't that great either, not very colorful. It did have a good low C. If the open F didn't suck so hard I could recommend this as a cheap starter horn but I just can't do that. Save up your money and get something better.

Other people here really like the Chinese horns but after playing now a total of 12 different Chinese made horns from different companies (including the newest from the flute company) I just can't recommend any of those horns. I mean gosh I have a scar now due to a 186 copy cutting my hand open. Slide ferrule was so sharp it sliced me open. Buy any of these at your own risk. Do not expect a great horn.

[cjk]

[ghmerrill]

I was very tempted by this Chinese F tuba as well. But I have talked with some people who have tried them (including one of the US importers who decided to stop offering the horn), and the universal response is that they are just not good. The intonation apparently is just terrible.

There is still a fairly high degree of variability in the Chinese instruments. Some are very good or excellent. Others are okay. Others are really bad. The compensating Eb tubas have a very good reputation, and the compensating euphoniums have perhaps an even better reputation. About a week ago I took delivery of one of the compensating euphoniums from Mack Brass (a sponsor here), and am astounded by how good the fit and finish are on the horn. With a Wick 3AL mouthpiece I have pretty much of a four octave range and the tone and intonation are excellent. And even the low B (1+2+3+4) sounds good.

But I wouldn't touch one of those F tubas.

[Michael Bush]

Diegoo,

Some love them, some hate them. I have no opinion, but if you search "Jinbao F" you'll come up with several long threads discussing them.

Reading through those will give you a sense of their strengths (yes, some people do think they are worthwhile) as well as their weaknesses. (And it will also be a good primer in the skill of reading TubeNet. The learning curve is a vertical wall.)

[ghmerrill]

Note that one of these seems to still be for sale used and with a gig bag in the "For Sale" forum: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=47844 .

[MartyNeilan]

I have talked to most of the importers of these horns over the last year, and have found out a few interesting things:
The "original" version that is still for sale (and even listed as an "upgraded" model due to a different leadpipe) has a great low register, overall good sound and response, but a few intonation issues that can either be fixed by lipping, alternate fingerings, or a trigger. People either love or hate these horns, but with a little work they are very playable.
The true "upgraded" version costs somewhat more and does not share these intonation issues. There have been a few people able to play both side by side, and they have immediately noticed the difference.

If I was to buy one of these horns, I would talk to the importers directly and spend the extra bucks on the one with the good open F.

Here is a very good and honest thread about the original version of these horns:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44720

Marty "not schilling for anyone."

[Wyvern]

I have stopped selling these despite frequent requests for F tubas. I personally tried one for rehearsal with my brass quintet and found it just impossible to play in tune and therefore am not prepared to retail (I will not sell any tuba I am not satisfied playing myself).

No doubt the fit and finish was bad on Chinese brass in the past, but now is really impressively good as frequently gets remarked by people visiting my trade stand - I have even noticed a marked improvement in just the 8 months I have been selling. Not one tuba I have so far sold has been returned with any kind of mechanical defect. Nothing worst than an unsoldered stay has been experienced.

For good playing models, you cannot go wrong with the compensated EEb and rotary CC (both being used professionally), the Alex style rotary BBb, 1291 based piston BBb, compensated Euphonium, or Eb/F travel tuba to name a few...

Note: The factories are obliging to customise models for individual importers, so you cannot be sure if apparently the same model from different sources is the same, or for that matter even comes from the same factory. If someone has solved the intonation problems of that F, then congratulations to them!

[Diegoo]

Right, you do not recommend this tuba, Maybe I can to pay a bit more and speak With The company for them to settle and open the F of my tuba, maybe........
Thanks a lot Mr.

Played them, more than one of them. Valves kinda sucked. Slides were really rough. The major problem was pitch. Open F was just awful. Im the kind of guy that doesn't like to use alternate fingerings for what should be the tuning note of a horn. The sound on this really wasn't that great either, not very colorful. It did have a good low C. If the open F didn't suck so hard I could recommend this as a cheap starter horn but I just can't do that. Save up your money and get something better.

Other people here really like the Chinese horns but after playing now a total of 12 different Chinese made horns from different companies (including the newest from the flute company) I just can't recommend any of those horns. I mean gosh I have a scar now due to a 186 copy cutting my hand open. Slide ferrule was so sharp it sliced me open. Buy any of these at your own risk. Do not expect a great horn.

[Diegoo]

Thanks for your opinion Mr.I will think about this.

I was very tempted by this Chinese F tuba as well. But I have talked with some people who have tried them (including one of the US importers who decided to stop offering the horn), and the universal response is that they are just not good. The intonation apparently is just terrible.

There is still a fairly high degree of variability in the Chinese instruments. Some are very good or excellent. Others are okay. Others are really bad. The compensating Eb tubas have a very good reputation, and the compensating euphoniums have perhaps an even better reputation. About a week ago I took delivery of one of the compensating euphoniums from Mack Brass (a sponsor here), and am astounded by how good the fit and finish are on the horn. With a Wick 3AL mouthpiece I have pretty much of a four octave range and the tone and intonation are excellent. And even the low B (1+2+3+4) sounds good.

But I wouldn't touch one of those F tubas.

[jeopardymaster]

Not on topic per se, but to the flow of the thread -- Jonathan, you mention the Alex-style BBb in your response. My question is - does it SOUND like the Alex? The look is there, I agree, but is the resonance and heft present? I'm genuinely eager to hear your assessment.

[bisontuba]

We've all watched someone add a main slide trigger to one, and then sell it for c. $1500.

Of course, "Tuning is NOT in the instrument; Tuning is in the player."

bloke "um-hum"

Joe-
Yes, I sold it after adding a trigger, and it served me well. I bought it when they were first available from a certain dealer and got it for around $1,000--so after spending money on having a trigger designed for it, I sold it for around what I had into it. The new owner got a very usable instrument at a good price because I bought it at a good price. I just wanted to get my money back that I had spent/ put into it. I shouldn't even have to respond like this to you, but you are what you are.

BTW, why not be a nice guy and sell your mouthpieces for what you have into them---hmmm?

Have a nice day...

Mark

[Lingon]

... If someone has solved the intonation problems of that F, then congratulations to them!...

Jonathan, have you discussed with the factory about the intonation problem? I remember in some earlier thread that you mentioned playing a couple of those instruments both bad and good ones, in China.
And the 'upgraded' one is also mentioned here and there. So if it is just to change the lead pipe for the intonation to be better, then maybe the modification could be available as a spare part for the older horns and standard or at least as an option for the newer ones as the instruments seems to be OK in all other aspects? Other brands may improve over time and I suppose JB are interested in that too?! It would be nice to have a full grown good working F rather than just the Bubbie to choose from...

A little off topic I can assure you that my old JB alto trombone and the CB trbn, that both played fine right out of the box, are also improved by putting in other lead pipes.

Anyone here that have compared the 'upgraded' F with the unmodified thoroughly and would be willing to share the experiences with TN?

[Dan Schultz]

Didn't someone intimate that these instruments have a connection to Germany?

Perhaps the "German engineers" went back over these instruments and redesigned them...

Any connection to Germany by any music instrument is rapidly fading. The Germany government only requires that 40% of the FINAL ASSEMBLY has to take place in Germany in order to qualify as a German product.

Aside from that... is there such a thing as an in-tune F tuba? Can't blame the Chinese for that. All they've done is copy stuff that didn't work so well in the first place. Lessee... would I rather pay $2,000 or $15,000 for a tuba that isn't in-tune?

[bort]

Hey Dan,

On that... do you think (or know) that it's some manufacturers more than others? If I'm remembering correctly, in "Tuba" Joe Exley's blog about his visit to the Miraphone factory, he mentioned something about talking to them about manufacturing, and they said that everything is always made right there in Germany. I would also expect that from the boutique manufacturers like Alexander, Rudy Meinl, Thein, etc.

Then again, German companies make many instruments other than just tubas, and much more than just high-end ones as well.

[Diegoo]

Why unreasonable Mr? I did myself a question. Greetings

Open F was just awful. Im the kind of guy that doesn't like to use alternate fingerings for what should be the tuning note of a horn.

You're just being unreasonable. It looks like an F tuba. Isn't that enough for you?

[Lingon]

...is there such a thing as an in-tune F tuba?...
... would I rather pay $2,000 or $15,000 for a tuba that isn't in-tune?...

Thein?

[Diegoo]

You're right, thanks a lot Mr, I'll think about it,
I play BBb Tuba a long time but now I need a F Tuba And That Schiller not think it is bad to start and be my first F tuba

Diegoo,

Some love them, some hate them. I have no opinion, but if you search "Jinbao F" you'll come up with several long threads discussing them.

Reading through those will give you a sense of their strengths (yes, some people do think they are worthwhile) as well as their weaknesses. (And it will also be a good primer in the skill of reading TubeNet. The learning curve is a vertical wall.)

[Diegoo]

Right Mr Marty Thanks
I'll talk to the person who will sell me the tuba: http://www.schillerinstruments.com/tuba ... kel-silver" target="_blank" target="_blank
and I will ask how much it costs to fix the main problem to open the F, What do you think about this?

I have talked to most of the importers of these horns over the last year, and have found out a few interesting things:
The "original" version that is still for sale (and even listed as an "upgraded" model due to a different leadpipe) has a great low register, overall good sound and response, but a few intonation issues that can either be fixed by lipping, alternate fingerings, or a trigger. People either love or hate these horns, but with a little work they are very playable.
The true "upgraded" version costs somewhat more and does not share these intonation issues. There have been a few people able to play both side by side, and they have immediately noticed the difference.

If I was to buy one of these horns, I would talk to the importers directly and spend the extra bucks on the one with the good open F.

Here is a very good and honest thread about the original version of these horns:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44720

Marty "not schilling for anyone."

[Wyvern]

Not on topic per se, but to the flow of the thread -- Jonathan, you mention the Alex-style BBb in your response. My question is - does it SOUND like the Alex? The look is there, I agree, but is the resonance and heft present? I'm genuinely eager to hear your assessment.

Having only once tried an original Alex and that a few years ago it is difficult for me to compare playing and tone wise, but the JBBB-200 is an amazing rotary BBb with real resonance to its sound, solid intonation and incredible low register - and rotary valves (on the four I've had) are as fast, quiet and smooth as a German made tuba. Players that try on Wessex trade stand (including those from the top Championship bands) are amazed by how well it plays - I had two wanting to buy when I recently exhibited at the Royal Northern College of Music - in fact one did take away.

The next time I am playing Shostakovich, or Prokofiev I want to try on this tuba.