ALL public schools should buy ALL low-grade Chinese instr's

[hup_d_dup]

There is a difference between deficit and debt.

Hup

[TubaRay]

When I started teaching (1979) I was talking with my principal about a problem student... "He won't be around long. He doesn't want to be here, and we don't want him here either. Everyone will be happier when he quits coming." The student was maybe 12. Today's accountability laws force schools and administrators to bend over backwards to keep such kids in school until graduation. This is exactly what 'No Child Left Behind' is all about. States are forced to comply, and this is passed down to the school level. When the worst students CANNOT be meaningfully punished... well, what do you expect?

This quote is exactly correct, and one of the major problems we have in our schools. We are emphasizing the keeping of all students in school, when the schools could, and would, be more effective if they just left. There are societal reasons for this reality, but it hampers the overall educational effort.

Rick has hit a number of points right on the head. If you haven't read his posts on this thread, I hope you do. For someone who has not been in the system himself, he demonstrates an acute knowledge and understanding of what is taking place.

He missed a couple of things in his assessments. At least in this part of the world, high school bands usually spend 2-3 months preparing THREE pieces for contest. Bands will then likely perform this at one or two contests. The time of the year for multiple Saturdays, and extreme extracurricular activities is the fall. Many bands, in addition to performing at all FB games, will have contests in which to compete on every Sat. in Oct. In fact, on some Sats., there are multiple contests on some of the Sats. And, just for the record, some of these bands have already handed out music for next fall's ONE marching show. I see this stuff with the students I teach(I teach private lessons and do "master classes" on a regular basis at 9 schools.).

Broadbased music education? Well, it is if you count spending Aug.-Oct. or Nov. learning music and drill to one contest show. Then you spend a couple of weeks in preparation for a (now) "Winter Concert." After the holidays, things begin to stir in prep for the spring concert contest(3 pieces). And, this is followed by a little prep for graduation music, in addition to beginning to learn the music for the following year's marching show. Sprinkle in a little work on sightreading skills(probably the best thing the student's get), along with sometimes half of each class period spent with a metronome on, doing breathing exercises, working on fundamentals, and doing technical exercise. I have to say I'm not sure I would have stayed in band, if I were coming up through the typical band, these days. Band used to be fun. What I observe would not have seemed like fun to me.

As for the original topic( ): In all the schools in which I teach, there are badly abused instruments. Some kids will take very good care of the instruments. It only takes a few to cause serious damage to a number of instruments. EVERY high school in which I work with kids has at least one tuba with a crinkled bell. Most students who use school instruments have little or no responsibility for their repair. We cannot deny equal opportunity for any kid. Those who cannot afford to repair an instrument are provided with the opportunity to damage it without consequences.

[duderubble]

I know this was already beat to death, but I just got blessed to come on today. I think there is a big advantage in kids owning instruments, I know not everyone can afford it, My son (12) started trumpet this year with a "like new" Bach student trumpet. It was his and he cared for it all year. It looked at the end of the year like it did at the beginning and only had one nearly invisible ding in the bell crook. He sold that horn AND his rifle to get a used but spotless silver Yamaha Allegro and is mowing lawns to pay off the last $80. He has great pride in that instrument. Knowing my kid, had those been school horns, they may have looked like the one in the OP. That's just kid nature.

OTOH instruments like tubas are hard to pick up for $200 and I sure don't want to limit band to the kids whose folks can afford it (which our school district basically does), even rental isn't an option--the reason we bought the first trumpet was because at that price it was cheaper (and much better) than a rental for one year. Euphoniums, Tubas, percussion are always going to be school owned, but there needs to be some accountability and a way to generate pride of ownership in those instruments.

[ralphbsz]

I have to agree with duderubble, and disagree with bloke. My son (who is 12 1/2) takes excellent care of his own tuba; cleaning it, oiling the linkages and rotors, making sure the slides move, and washing the mouthpiece. When he takes his own tuba to school (for concerts and exams), he locks it in the hard case, and gets very pissed off if any other student tries to mess with the case. In school, he usually plays the school-owned tuba (a Yamaha 321), and he also does what little maintenance it gets (which is making sure the slides move, greasing the slides, and oiling the valves). I'm sure that at the end of the school year, the school-owned tuba will be in better shape than when the school year started. Over the winter breaks, I volunteered to take the three school-owned tubas to a great local repair shop (hallo James!), and have them deep-cleaned and small problems fixed (a few stuck slides, one bent valve case, cracked slide crooks).

Several of his friends have reasonably good brass instruments (the section leader of the trumpet plays a Bach Strad and just got a really nice flugelhorn, there are several other nice trumpets and trombones), and those students are very protective of their horns, and take good care of them. When we went on the band field trip to Disney, the students went out of their way to make sure their instruments were safely stored in the tour bus (they were more careful than I would have been). This is a band made up of 6th through 8th grade students, not graduate school!

Obviously, there are a few losers and jerks around. One baritone player is extremely careless with his school-owned horn, and it looks like it was banged up all over during the school year; the bell is halfway folded up. For that reason, that kid is not allowed to borrow a school-owned horn for use at home, so his parents had to buy or rent a baritone for him to practice on. Another student had a tantrum and deliberately stepped on a trombone player's horn (totally wrecking it), and the parents had to pay for the damages. So for the most part, the band kids are a responsible and respectful bunch, and for the exceptions, the parents have to take care of it.

Still, the band director has a reasonable budget for instrument repair and replacement. Accidents happen; instruments wear out. He tries to have a set of loaner instruments for students who can't afford buying their own, and for the large ones (baritone, bari sax and tuba), he even has extra loaners for keeping at home for practice (if you have earned his trust); the loaners that go home are older, simpler or beat-up instruments (like his loaner tuba is a Jupiter 3/4 size 3-valve, but it is well maintained and works). I know that his home loan baritones are "Olds Ambassador", which are built like tanks, but old and ugly. I think this summer he's hoping to replace one bari sax (he has two, one is over 30 years old), buy one new baritone, and get a handful new alto saxes and clarinets, to replace the ones where the keywork was bent back one too many times. I think his annual repair/replacement budget is between $5K and $10K, for four bands with a total of 200 students. All that is paid for by parent donations. I really don't see a huge problem in this school. YMMV.

[TUBAD83]

Make all students and their parents/guardians sign a fully binding agreement stating basically if the kid damages a school instrument and or destroys it, they have to repair or contribute significantly to its replacement. No agreement, no school instrument...period--no exceptions. That was the case when I was in high school and that is how it is now (in fact, parents have to put down a deposit for the instrument). Schools should not have to put with kids who have no interest in school and parents who simply don't give damn if their kids succeed or not. Lets help the ones who want to succeed first and foremost.

JJ

[sloan]

How will buying Chinese tubas help? [just trying to stay on topic...]

[sloan]

There are two issues here:

1) students may be less than careful custodians of their school-owned instruments

2) students may not have enough CONTROL over those instruments to keep them from harm.

Here's a plan: when a student enters the band program - GIVE THEM:

a) an instrument in playable condition
b) a case capable of providing minimal protection
c) a locker where they can store the instrument, in its case

Your horn is trash? Not my problem! One per customer.

This probably costs the Band Parents' Check Writing Association less in the long run.

[ghmerrill]

why not buy disposable nearly worthless equipment in order to waste as little as possible ... .

I would argue that there is actually something of a tradition here. Traditionally, parents have been compelled (by circumstances and "recommendations" of band directors whose interests may not have been the purest one can imagine) to shell out rather excessive rental fees for at best mediocre instruments -- providing a substantial part of the revenue for local "music stores". This was -- in my experience at least -- "nearly worthless equipment" in which the parents and student retained no interest other than temporary use.

From my perspective, it is a HUGE advantage for parents to buy an instrument (of, I would argue, at least comparable quality to the traditional rental ones: Bundy, etc.) which the student may continue to use beyond a single year (and if taken care of, for a number of years), and which may then even be sold to beginning students at a later time -- if well taken care of. If not well taken care of, then little in capital investment has been lost, and at least you (parent) don't have to pay repair costs in addition to rental fees. Or so it seems to me. I would (thinking back) DEFINITELY buy my kid a Chinese euphonium (trumpet, trombone, flute, clarinet, etc.) rather than renting something from the local rental pirate. (Of course, what I DID do was to pass on my flute to my daughter, get a decent used clarinet for son #2, and a quite good bassoon for son #1. But I don't think that weakens my argument here about buy-cheap-Chinese vs. rental.)

This does not, of course, address the question as to what SCHOOLS should buy. Again (didn't I say this already?) except in the case of "large and exceptional instruments" (timpani, string bass, etc.) I don't see good reason for the school to provide any instruments to students. Those "large and exceptional instruments" I see as "necessary infrastructure". I'm inclined to include tubas among them. But that view could be swayed.

[Donn]

With all due respect, your experience is anecdotal whereas mine (having gone through and repaired many schools' instruments for well over thirty years) is legion.

and of course a more impartial observer, there never was.

The point I draw from these anecdotes is that a band director might be better advised to rely on his own judgement in these matters.

More broadly, it does make me wonder if the lifespan of band instruments could be used as a statistical index, maybe a surrogate for other things that are less easily measured but of greater sociological interest. Could be a research project in it.

[TubaRay]

Sousaphone bell creases are caused by man-made climate change.

Shouldn't you have given Al Gore credit for that quote?

[k001k47]

Yeah, buy the tubas from Al, public schools.

[ghmerrill]

More broadly, it does make me wonder if the lifespan of band instruments could be used as a statistical index, maybe a surrogate for other things that are less easily measured but of greater sociological interest. Could be a research project in it.

grants.gov

(If you haven't looked at this site but wonder how some of your money is being spent -- including 24/7 phone support for applying for grants -- you really need to. Very entertaining. And I'm sure you can find some possibilities for such a grant.)

[TubaRay]

Sousaphone bell creases are caused by man-made climate change.

Shouldn't you have given Al Gore credit for that quote?

Yes. He invented tubenet, didn't he?

Absolutely! I understand he's working on a system of tuba offsets.

[b.williams]

"Kids! What's the matter with kids, today?" - exercise for the reader: when were these lyrics written?

“Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannise their teachers.”
― Socrates 469-399 BC

[sloan]

"Kids! What's the matter with kids, today?" - exercise for the reader: when were these lyrics written?

“Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannise their teachers.”
― Socrates 469-399 BC

The trouble with quotes you see on the Interwebz is that you can never really be sure they are accurate.
- Abraham Lincoln

[ghmerrill]

"Kids! What's the matter with kids, today?" - exercise for the reader: when were these lyrics written?

“Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannise their teachers.”
― Socrates 469-399 BC

The trouble with quotes you see on the Interwebz is that you can never really be sure they are accurate.
- Abraham Lincoln

It takes little effort to get quite reliable evidence for a quote on the web. This is unlike, say, in ancient times, when, for example, Socrates left no written works and we must trust the likes of Plato (often a hardly neutral observer) for the accuracy of Socrates' thoughts and teaching. And we KNOW what happened to Socrates -- precisely for "corrupting the youth".

[ghmerrill]

You are, of course, aware that we "know" what happened to Socrates through Plato?

You might want to rethink that question -- or perhaps do a little more careful research on it.

But perhaps you really know the answer and are just attempting irony.

[ghmerrill]

Not at all. I mean what I say. Maybe you need to rethink what I typed. Carefully. It is very specific in what it leaves out. Thanks for playing our game.

I'm willing to play but really confused at this point. Could you be more precise?