Baritone vs. Euphonium

[Radar]

"radar" typed backwards is still "radar" and I find them all to be comical. And I have one of them flipped horns that plays left-handed. I just took it to TubaChristmas in Atlanta today. Don Strand was saying about 175 participants.

alfredr (I'm not left-handed, I just play that way)

I've often been accused of being backwards, so with this user name no one can tell!!!

[iiipopes]

Jupiter does make a bell-up version of the American hybrid baritone-horn, but in standard right handed front valve orientation, even though they call it a euph, as well as a non-comp 4-valve that looks like a euph, plays like a euph, but has the same bore and taper to make it the American version instead of a "true" euph in the Besson style.
http://www.jupitermusic.com/jbi_instrum ... Id=2&sId=1" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Radar]

Jupiter does make a bell-up version of the American hybrid baritone-horn, but in standard right handed front valve orientation, even though they call it a euph, as well as a non-comp 4-valve that looks like a euph, plays like a euph, but has the same bore and taper to make it the American version instead of a "true" euph in the Besson style.
http://www.jupitermusic.com/jbi_instrum ... Id=2&sId=1" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I just sold a 3 Valve upright bell, American made horn, made by Parker (a reference to Charlie Parker) out of Texas that was probably made in the early 60s I think it would definately have fallen into the American Hybrid category.

[David Richoux]

...baritones are cylindrical and euphoniums are conical.

baritones have a forward bell, and euphoniums have an upright bell.

That would mean that Leonard Falcone played a baritone and this little POS I have in my bandroom is a euphonium

I have this LP he did. I don't know if he chose the title.

[Kevin Hendrick]

I have always assumed that baritones were smaller bore, and euphoniums were larger bore but never can find a difinative description of where the seperation is. Now I read an article that says baritones are cylindrical and euphoniums are conical. Can someone clarify this for me?

This is really quite simple...

So, it really *does* take a pair of bells (not necessarily large) to play a(n) euphonium? Always wondered where that old phrase "bells to the wall" came from ...

[bbocaner]

+1 - I think he did call his instrument a baritone

except that, as I wrote above, the historic American name for Euphonium IS baritone, so it's not incorrect to call it a baritone when it really counts as a euphonium.

[imperialbari]

Just for clarification:

Please these 3 categories, preferably documented by specs and photos:

baritone

euphonium

Sousa’s Bb bass, which was a fifth above the Eb tuba.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Your last paragraph makes no sense at all.

Sousa's Bb bass from the 1870'ies was a fat baritone range instrument, likely would have been called euphonium today.

Eventually Sousa's trio of 2 Bb tenors and 1 Bb bass developed into the 2 tenor trombones and the bass trombone (first called 3rd trombone for a period of years).

Klaus

[imperialbari]

I understand why. Sousa wrote a lot of music, but there still must been a sense of repetivity associated with the concerts. He and his musicians would have plain rottened up, brainwise, if there hadn't been elements of spontaneity.

Within recent years I have written here on the Sousa marches made available by your LOC. And they clearly show main tendencies of developments from the smaller post-CW-era bands with Eb basses at the bottom through something similar to a modern regimental band (with 4 double reeds though).

Klaus

[Donn]

So, one could argue give the more bright sound you get from what we might call a baritone, would be playing the Treble Clef part, while the euphonium would be playing the Bass Clef part. But then what are these Bb Tenors? Wouldn't these be considered baritones?

Bb Bass might be a transposing Eb tuba reading treble clef. Even if doubled on the 3rd trombone, it seems like it's within a normal range for Eb tuba

Did you look at what he wrote for them? The treble clef and bass clef baritone parts are the same, so it's more or less immaterial which instruments play which. A sort of octave cornet part.

The Bb Tenors are given essentially the same harmony/rhythm part as the trombones, so you could tentatively infer something like what the English call a baritone in their off-by-one system, in Italian flicorno tenore.

The Bb Bass is a treble clef version of the 3rd trombone part, from F below the bass clef to A in the treble clef. Kind of marks time until it picks up the big trombone thing in the last part of the piece. It isn't a tuba part, and arguably might be only an expedient in case there's an extra baritone and insufficient 3rd trombone.

[bbocaner]

No. Note that in british brass bands the baritones appear in the score after the tenorhorns, which is before the trombones, which are before the euphoniums.

Prior to sousa, american band music often did not have trombones and had tenorhorns instead. Tenorhorn parts usually did not go along with the Bb bass part, which usually was either unison with or in octaves with the Eb bass part. Civil war band music almost never has trombone parts. Sousa's very early work followed this convention, but later he and other composers of the 1880s/1890s started introducing trombones which, in some cases, started to make the tenorhorns (baritones) redundant. It was only later that the Bb bass part became kind of an optional double of the bass trombone, and that the tenorhorns became largely an optional double of the tenor trombones. A lot of the music of that time has cues across both sets of parts. As time went on, the trombones became more accepted and the tenorhorns as well as the Bb bass became less standard.

[Donn]

No.

No, what?

Note that in british brass bands the baritones appear in the score after the tenorhorns, which is before the trombones, which are before the euphoniums.

I wouldn't doubt it, but not sure what the part order means to you? In this case by "tenorhorn" you mean Eb alto?

As for the American scene, from your comments about American band instrumentation and from Sousa's score discussed above, we can see that the trombone replaced a variety of 19th century Bb horn roles. So different horns were made corresponding somewhat to these roles, I suppose? Tenor horns, evidently, and maybe something kind of like a "tenor tuba"?

[bbocaner]

No, what?

I was responding to a post before mine which was deleted by its author that suggested that "Bb tenor" might have meant tenor saxophone because it appeared in the score before the trombones.

I wouldn't doubt it, but not sure what the part order means to you? In this case by "tenorhorn" you mean Eb alto?

correct, in the british context, tenorhorn refers to the Eb alto instrument.

So different horns were made corresponding somewhat to these roles, I suppose? Tenor horns, evidently, and maybe something kind of like a "tenor tuba"?

correct. the 1880s through about 1920sa american Bb tenorhorn isn't all that different from the british baritone. you see them on ebay often. conn made them. pepper made them. gautrot. boland and fuchs made a lot that were sold by carl fischer, lyon & healey, etc.

some good examples:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... -tenor.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... Tenor2.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... 156074.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... -11465.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank

and there were civil war Bb tenorhorns that were a distinctly smaller instrument than the baritone as well:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... -tenor.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... -tenor.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank

Bb bass is a little more rare, but you see them. The 1880s through around 1920s versions look like a modern euphonium, often have an even larger bell, like 13" or 14". The civil war version of a Bb bass looks an awful lot like civil war baritones, but sometimes has a slightly larger bell or sometimes has 4 valves.

hornucopia categorizes this as a euphonium, but this looks like it may have been intended as a Bb bass (might even be a small Eb, but it gives you an idea...)

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... -34050.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank

or this York: i'm pretty sure this would have been called a Bb bass by its original owner:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... -11395.jpg" target="_blank

[bbocaner]

Oh, this is excellent. Check out this Boston catalog from 1869. Pages 8, 10, and 11 show Bb tenor, baritone, and bass in three different constructions.

http://archive.org/download/illustrated ... 00bost.pdf" target="_blank

[bbocaner]

Here's another really good instrument catalog, this one circa 1890 -- so this one nicely overlaps with early sousa.

http://archive.org/download/illustrated ... 00cbru.pdf" target="_blank

check out page 18 which gives suggested instrumentation for bands of different sizes. None of them have trombones listed!

pages 12-15, 24-28, and 45-48 show three different lines of Eb alto, Bb tenor, Bb baritone, Bb bass, and Eb bass.

also note that all of the trombones in this catalog are valve trombones.

[tbn.al]

Keep looking. The reed bands all advocate trombones as alternates. Only the brass bands do not metion trombones. There is a slide trombone and many valve trombones listed.

[bbocaner]

Keep looking. The reed bands all advocate trombones as alternates. Only the brass bands do not metion trombones. There is a slide trombone and many valve trombones listed.

good point, but the fact that in the 1890s they are saying you could use tenors OR trombones and that you wouldn't necessarily need both does back up my thought that by the 1890s it was a transitional time period where trombones were replacing tenors.

[tbn.al]

Can't help but wonder, since the trombone family predates the tenor horn family by hundreds of years, why those bands were predisposed to tenor horns. Then I try to imagine playing a trombone on horseback? Could there have been a military aversion to slides due to a horseback requirement? If so, what did the military bands use before valves? Bugles?

[GC]

Trombone slides are too easy to damage in the field. Tenors were more compact and durable.

[imperialbari]

The introduction of the valves lead to a sense that the slide trombone had become obsolete. At least in some areas.

We know of the Italian use of valve trombones in opera orchestras.

Some fast low range passages in one of Dvorak’s works had puzzled trombonists and musicologists. Technically next to impossible on a slide instrument. And with core notes that would be impossible to get in tune on an instrument with the usual 3 valves. No matter how the slides had been set. The answer was found in an old storage room in a Czech concert hall. The trombonists has played valved instrument with a trigger system that was very advanced for its era.

The Copenhagen opera orchestra had shifted to valve trombones at some point of time after 1850 to meet the increasing technical demands in then modern parts. The sound wasn’t considered adequate, but it wasn’t until Anton Hansen won the seat as solo trombonist around 1890 that the slide trombones were reintroduced on demand from AH.

As lately as around 1980 a Danish military band had a professional player playing a valve trombone. He had joined the band while it was still all valved.

Klaus