why some horns don't sell

[MikeMason]

I realize this will probably elicit alot of "mind your own business" responses,but, i submit that the main if not only reason a horn doesn't sell within a couple months is for one reason only: the price is too high.several horns on tubenet and other sites have languished for months. a couple of old concepts come to mind.an item is only worth what a qualified buyer is willing to pay for it in a reasonable amount of time.and the other is the time-value of money.basically,holding onto a non-producing asset is the same as losing money due to the lack of the productive use of the money the asset is worth and inflation. keep in mind that any horn will sell in a reasonable time at some price,even the ones that have been at our favorite used horn vendors for YEARS. Flame away....ps, i'm not in the market for a horn.i'm not trying to affect the price of horns.i'm just practicing a bit of early-onset curmudgeonism

[Donn]

By this standard, I would have to immediately sell all my musical instruments, in order to stop the hemorrhage of hypothetical money.

But if you think about what might happen to that money if I had it ... the instrument might hold its value better than the money, with inflation taken into account. Let us rather be rich in tubas.

[tubamirum]

I think there are other factors involved that I don't claim to understand. For example, I had a horn on the major auction site that didn't sell, I relisted and it sold immediately with no reduction of my reserve. I also noticed one auction that had many bids, was sold and the next week a horn of the same make and model didn't sell. Where was the second highest bidder?

[Doug@GT]

Concur - just like the stock market. If your horn doesn't sell then it is probably priced too high.

That's only if "selling the horn" is your only goal. For example, I've got a tuba I'd like to sell, but I've also decided that if I can't get x dollars for it, it's worth more to me to keep the horn. In that case, I wouldn't consider the horn to be priced too high.

On the other hand, palces like TubeNet and eBay give prospective buyers at least some point of reference in determining a "fair" value for a given horn. This will drive the prices down in these markets. I'll be more likely to get my asking price for my tuba somewhere else (i.e., selling privately to a high school or college kid who needs a horn).

Doug "walking market failure"

[MikeMason]

of course my theory only applies to those who actually want to sell their horn,but can't. ie," this 35 yr old ugly to everyone but me cerveny piggy has been my best friend.i won't take a penny less than 4500 for it and it's worth every penny.I know it seems horribly out of tune,but if you'll just spend 10yrs getting used to it,you'll love it"

[Mitch]

The price and sale of tubas are driven by supply and demand, just like any other product or commodity.

It depends on competition in the marketplace and the spontaneous pool of buyers looking for that product.

On any given day, a relatively finite number of buyers are looking on tubenet or ebay for a tuba.

From that pool, an even smaller number are looking for a Mirafone, just to use that as an example.

From that pool, a limited number of people are looking for a 186.

From that pool, a limited number of people are looking for a BBb.

From that pool, a limited number of people are looking for a four-valve horn.

From that pool, a limited number of people are actually going to pursue making an offer/bid, and fewer yet will attempt to actually get with the horn, which takes us to the next point.

On top of all this, buying a horn is not usually something people will do without having had the opportunity to try the horn. The "right" horn for most people is the one that feels "right" and sounds "right," which is difficult to assess if the horn is listed online and located seven states away.

In addition, most of us are on a budget; it's unusual to come across a tubist for whom money is no object. This brings us to the economic principle of substitution. In other words: "I'm on a budget; why am I going to pay you more for your horn if this other horn is fairly comparable and hundreds less?"

I'm a licensed Realtor in Illinois. In my local market, I see this with houses all the time. I would hazard a theory that the active market for tubas follows the active market for housing, which follows the school year. Most people with school-aged children seem to prefer to move near the beginning of summer so the kids have the summer to get to know new friends and settle in before school starts. This means the most active time of the year is usually March/April/May. The benefit for the sellers is a much larger pool of buyers. The benefit for the buyers is a larger inventory from which to choose. Now that we're in August, fewer buyers are looking, and fewer houses go on the market each day. The buyers have less choice and the sellers face stiffer pricing competition if they want a better chance at capturing someone from that smaller pool of buyers.

The "For Sale" section of TubeNet seems to follow the same trend. Back in April/May, it seemed there were more new postings each day than we're seeing lately, which makes sense, as most students who wanted to upgrade before school started have done so. There's always the pool of buyers who are always looking for that magical horn, but not as many as a few months ago. Add to that the fact that anyone who's upgrading is frequently selling, so one sale begets another. Less upgrading equals a slower overall market.

Add to this the fact that pricing horns, like many other products, is entirely subjective. Unlike the Kelly Blue Book, we have nothing at our disposal that tells us what a 1974 Cerveny Piggy or a 1993 Yorkbrunner should be worth. It all comes down to the seller thinking, "Well, I paid $X,XXX for it, and I've taken good care of it, except for the time I backed over it, but I had that fixed, and a new one costs, $X,XXX (or $XX,XXX), and Jimbo sold his for $X,XXX, and mine definitely plays better than his, so mine should be worth at LEAST $X,XXX." Then it's a matter of a buyer agreeing that the horn is worth that price, or whether the buyer thinks another, less expensive horn is better, or at least an acceptable option. Would you buy a 1993 Yorkbrunner for $5,000? Would you buy a 1974 Piggy for $5,000? We tell our clients, "The seller sets the price, the buyer sets the value."

So, short story long, many variables must combine for the right product and buyer to come together, especially for a product like tubas, which have a finite market to begin. When a horn fails to sell, the price is too high because a more affordable option for the buyer exists, or the buyer willing to pay that price is not aware of the sale. This explains why a horn can be listed one time and get no bids, and listed another time and sell well above list.

That's my $.02. Okay, more like $.04.

[cjk]

OK...It's time for tuba sellin' school! Very Happy

Here's one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NO-NAME-3-4-TUBA-LI ... dZViewItem

Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?

Heck no. It LOOKS like a 3/4 Rudy BBb, but why would you spend $3k on something that the seller doesn't even know what it is. It could be anything. It didn't sell the last time it was on there either.

Here's another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mirafone-186-Bb-Tub ... dZViewItem

Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?

Yup. it will sell. There's no reserve, the opening bid is pretty cheap, the starting bid could be the winner, It's very shiny and it's very shiny.

Here's yet another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-YBB-201-BBb- ... dZViewItem

Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?

I dunno. I doubt it. That's a lot of bux for 3 valves even though it is shiny, in really good shape, and has obviously been professionally overhauled.

Here's yet another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/B-S-Perrantucci-PT- ... dZViewItem


Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?
_________________

I might be a "hair" older than your daughter, but Duh. The "Buy It Now" price is a steal. Even so, some foolish folks are "bidding" on it. I would be willing to bet that the reserve is the "Buy It Now" price. Somebody with a brain will probably go ahead and use "Buy It Now".
I considered buying it because it's a deal and I don't even need it.

[windshieldbug]

Old ones are crap, new ones are going to win me the gig/girl/happiness/fullfillment/a life...

AND much easier than having to actually practice...

[MaryAnn]

I think there are other factors involved that I don't claim to understand. For example, I had a horn on the major auction site that didn't sell, I relisted and it sold immediately with no reduction of my reserve. I also noticed one auction that had many bids, was sold and the next week a horn of the same make and model didn't sell. Where was the second highest bidder?

If the second highest bidder was like me, he was either 1) sighing in relief that he didn't buy it, or 2) off sobbing in a corner that he didn't buy it. Either way he might not come back to the auction site for a week or two.

MA

[Chuck(G)]

If you want to sell an instrument on eBay, you'll get better results if it's haunted:

http://cgi.ebay.com/HAUNTED-PARANORMAL- ... dZViewItem

[Dean E]

[T]he main if not only reason a horn doesn't sell within a couple months is for one reason only: the price is too high. . . .

Too high for the online auction market.
Too high for buyers looking for low price only.
Too high for buyers needing an installment sale and time payments.
Too high considering transportation, gig bag, and hard case costs.
Too high for buyers lacking an appreciation of value.
Too high for a product with no service attached to the sale.
Too high considering the availability of substitute products.
Too high for a seller looking for a fast sale.

I could go on, but there are numerous reasons.

[Chuck(G)]

I really like the auctions that say: "What you see is what I say it is. No returns no way no how, even if I'm lying.". "If I say the valves are good and they've got more holes than a sponge, tough. I must not know what I'm talking about. If it turns out to be an Eb instead of an F, tough."

Don't laugh. That happened to me--once. I picked up what was billed as an Olds baritone. When it finally arrived, I found a note in the packing that said "It really was a Pan American, I guess I read the label wrong". Fortunately, this was a parts instrument, so it didn't matter to me. But how would you like to buy a B&S, only to find that when it was delivered that it was a Jinbao?

Gives you a really nice warm feeling doesn't it? I make sure that if there's any doubt, the seller will take the instrument back if it's not what he says it is.

[Doug@GT]

Gives you a really nice warm feeling doesn't it?

Yep. I'm very warm and sleep very well at night knowing I'd never buy from a seller with a disclaimer like that.

Doug "who, like Chuck, ALWAYS confirms return policies"

[Cameron Gates]

Bloke, I'd like to give your test a try

OK...It's time for tuba sellin' school!

Here's one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NO-NAME-3-4-TUBA-LI ... dZViewItem

Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?

It will not sell at that price. Too much for a poorly photographed non-engraved instrument. I'd like to play it. If I was local I'd ask to give it a ride first. Then again........$3000.00 might buy that Miraphone below.

Here's another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mirafone-186-Bb-Tub ... dZViewItem

Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?

Yes, this will sell. Trashed 186's go for insane money. Snipers are ready for this one.

Here's yet another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-YBB-201-BBb- ... dZViewItem

Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?

This one will not sell for that price, period. Unless a frantic soccer/tuba mom with the BMW SUV sees it. It's shiny and it will shut the kid up about a horn.

Here's yet another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/B-S-Perrantucci-PT- ... dZViewItem


Will it sell?

Why or why not...or why probably or probably not?
I'm going NO on this one. Alterations done might not be good for the general player. Cheap old B&S F's are all over the place.

How did I do, Bloke?

[ThomasDodd]

Most of this opinionism is bullshit. There are trollers out there who would have you believe that if a horn doesn't disappear overnight when offered for sale, then its a bowser. Or priced "too high." Or both.

In the case of used horns, that is often the case though. But then again some people will pay too much fro a bad horn they really(think?) they want.

I did, then again, I knew what I wanted, and got it. It was more than the horn was worth, but what I was willing to spend. Granted, it was a couple of grand, but still big money from my very thin wallet

I had people persistently "offering" me 2 grand for a couple of different f tubas I offered the list, not even 1/2 of what I'd offered them for. I am sure the schlubbs knew full well that they'd easily double their investments to buy that low, if theirt intent was to resell. And with that knowledge, who wouldn't sit on a horn for a year or two, especially one that plays well and is useful in the meantime.

If you can afford to wait great. Sometime people will take what they can get.

Why are you so certain that they planned to resell at a profit? If somone has $2k to spend, they'll offer it. Doesn't matter if the horn is worth $3k or $6K. They only have two. Or maybe they don't have a clue what the horn is worth?

I've seen many horns priced well beyond the value I'd give them. And seen them sell at those prices. If I question the price, I might offer what I think it's worth, probably with an explanition of my valuation. The seller has the right to take it or leave it.

But this concerned horns offered form long periods that haven't sold. It can take a while for a willing buyer to reach a willing seller. Then again, that buyer might find a desperate seller and take advantage of the oppournity to.

[Rick Denney]

Most of this opinionism is bullshit.

Not to be a farty-pants (well...maybe ) but so far, I'm battin' 1000%.

And your analysis was more like grad school when the original test was 6th grade. The 6th-grade answers:

1. No. How does a guy who thinks rotary valves are "horizontal pistons" know a German tuba from tabby cat?

2. Yes. Miraphones always sell when they are reasonably priced, and this was is. Your grad-school answer was that it could have sold for me, if the seller had risked a low bid to allow the bidding to build up some momentum. When your in the business, the risk is easy to absorb. But for a one-time sale, a guaranteed acceptable price might be better than a really good price that also might be a really bad price.

3. Not to a tuba player.

4. Yes. A pro-quality B&S F for around three grand? That hasn't happened in about 18 months (since I bought mine). But here I disagree with your grad-school analysis. The description here was much more brief than the very long and detailed paragraphs I used to read from a certain Memphian seller. This description identified the seller as an experience player and thus added value to the instrument, for those who already trusted the brand.

Rick "who thinks there is a difference between pricing something aggressively for the buyer and pricing it aggressively for the seller" Denney

[Cameron Gates]

2. Yes. Miraphones always sell when they are reasonably priced, and this was is. Your grad-school answer was that it could have sold for me, if the seller had risked a low bid to allow the bidding to build up some momentum. When your in the business, the risk is easy to absorb. But for a one-time sale, a guaranteed acceptable price might be better than a really good price that also might be a really bad price.

Well, I choked anyway...

...The Miraphone sold.

Of course, it might have been that the Miraphone sold because two or three folks on TubeNet said that it was a good deal...

I still think the Miraphone was a buy. The B&S still makes me scratch my head. F's are going cheap and that one was altered.