cheapest gas - late August, 2005

[Daryl Fletcher]

[Dean]

You make it seem like somebody is trying to make you feel guilty. I don't think that's the case at all, or at least it shouldn't be.

Nope, not guilty at all

Nor any need to read "into" my posts, just read them

Just having a discussion about the economics of hybrids. The only reason I contribute is because 1. Its interesting to read people's thoughts on this and 2. Just throwing some ideas around for those who might be considering buying a hybrid or a standard IC car with good efficiency.

I thought about the Prius, A LOT. Especially for me, because I ride the HOV lanes to work, and, for now, hybrids are permitted on the HOV at all times, regardless of the number of passengers. A very nice selling point, though VA law can easily be changed, and its still not worth the extra 8 grand (to me). The Prius is a very nice vehicle. It has a lot of nice features that should be designed into other cars... the "Smartkey" system is AWESOME. But, the LCD screen in the middle of the dash, the "fancy" shifter... all that stuff is just bells and whistles, and will go un-noticed after a month or so of driving...

Anyway, I am happy with my purchase--and you are happy with yours. Just having a discussion is all

And I didnt want people to think that hybrids are only $3500 more than Civics/Corollas... not true.

[Daryl Fletcher]

[Dean]

... Because I ride the HOV lanes to work, and, for now, hybrids are permitted on the HOV at all times, regardless of the number of passengers. A very nice selling point, though VA law can easily be changed, and its still not worth the extra 8 grand (to me).

That would be a nice perk. Here in Atlanta, where air pollution is definitely a problem, we get no such perks.

The Prius is a very nice vehicle. It has a lot of nice features that should be designed into other cars... the "Smartkey" system is AWESOME. But, the LCD screen in the middle of the dash, the "fancy" shifter... all that stuff is just bells and whistles, and will go un-noticed after a month or so of driving...

We definitely agree on that one!! All that "crap" should be an upgrade... Not in the base model. It has to bump up the price of the vehicle as it is...


Ok, but of course that has nothing to do with it being a hybrid at all. Those are nothing more than fancy car features. If Toyota wanted to, they could sell it without all that. I'm sure they will go back to that soon. Mine, the 2003 model, is a fairly plain car. Why they wanted to add all that in the new model and make it more expensive is beyond me.

[MaryAnn]

I based my very recent car purchase on several things:
1. can I get my feet on the floor (very short from the knee to the ankle)
2. up-and-down back window; the slanty ones cause cars in this part of the country to reach unbelievable temperatures inside from the sun coming through on our 250 days of sunshine per year, and I didn't want to tint it black
3. crash tests
4. can I get the tuba inside and have it not visible
5. reliability
6. better gas mileage than my truck

I didn't get a Prius, or any other hybrid, because of the battery problem. I am an ageing hippie-tree-hugging-vegetarian-environmentalist, and I don't want batteries all over the landfills. I don't like wind farms either, which are called bird-whackers in the industry.
The hybrids are mostly hype; the auto manufacturers have found out that hybridization adds a lot of *acceleration* to a vehicle, and so they are "going hybrid with hype" on vehicles not to dramatically improve gas mileage, but to marginally improve gas mileage and get better acceleration. That is, to appeal to the usual American car buyer's desire of driving something that will out-accelerate an A-10.

So I got what I got. I like it; it's the last time I'll get a new car, I'm sure. I think fuel cells are something we should seriously investigate, but they have some serious development to go through first.

How about running on hydrogen? We could get that from sea water.

MA

[MaryAnn]

I don't like wind farms either, which are called bird-whackers in the industry.
MA

You know MaryAnn, we have to get energy from somewhere. I'd kill a few birds if it meant less coal burning. And it does.

The thing is, the coal-burning generators are under extremely strict emissions regulations. The bird-whackers are generally put in major flyways and migration paths. How many birds are you willing to sacrifice to burn less coal? It seems to me to be a much more complex environmental / ecological issue than "coal is bad, killing a few birds is better." How many is "a few?" How much is "less coal?"

MA, who thinks the problem is population; if there were few enough of us that we didn't have the capability of ruining the environment to the point of non-recovery, the problem would be solved. But oops...this is heading towards politics, isn't it?

[Dean]

And I didnt want people to think that hybrids are only $3500 more than Civics/Corollas... not true.

Yes, hybrids generally add only about $2 - 3k over the price of the same model w/o a hybrid system. You can't compare a Prius to a Corolla, they are not the same car. Compare the Civic hybrid, MSRP $20,415 to the Civic EX (the middle model) MSRP $18,025. Sure, you could compare it to a $4,000 used car that runs like new and looks like new, but that's apples and oranges.

For the purposes of fuel efficiency, we can compare any cars we like.

I was specifically comparing the Prius and Corolla because they are both fuel-efficient cars. The Prius having around 50-55 mpg, and the Corolla having around 35-36mpg. Their base models are about 8 grand difference in price.

Prius gas use in one year (assuming 20,000 miles):

20,000 miles / 53mpg = 377 gallons of gas x 2.55 = $962 per year

Corolla:

20,000 miles / 35mpg = 571 gallons of gas x 2.55 = $1457 per year


I am using the $2.55 price of gas because that was the price BEFORE the hurricane disaster (the price where I live anyway). You can see that the Prius saves about $500 a year in gas over the Corolla at current prices.

My above statement was wrong... It would take about 16 years of driving the Prius to make up the 8 grand or so difference in price with the Corolla, at that point you would have 320,000 miles on the vehicle... Who knows how much money you might pour into the Prius after the 100,000 mile warranty is up on the electric motor and batteries too??

I dunno... hybrids to me seem to be a stepping stone... A last ditch attempt at old technology before we finally move onto something that is truly better!


Ohh, and as far as apples and oranges, I do get your point. But mine was simply to find a reliable vehicle that is fuel efficient and cheap. So that car payment + gas bill over time = as little as possible. Using those guidelines, all vehicles are comparable!

[JCalkin]

Yes, hybrids generally add only about $2 - 3k over the price of the same model w/o a hybrid system. You can't compare a Prius to a Corolla, they are not the same car. Compare the Civic hybrid, MSRP $20,415 to the Civic EX (the middle model) MSRP $18,025. Sure, you could compare it to a $4,000 used car that runs like new and looks like new, but that's apples and oranges.

Except in the case of the Prius, Toyota was actually LOSING money on each one sold, at least in the beginning, kind of like a loss-leader to get the technology into the mainstream eye. No clue if that's still happening. Once hybrids have been around for a few more yearsa and the technology is taken for granted, the price will undoubtedly go UP so Toyata can make money instead of losing it. They are a business, after all.

Prius gas use in one year (assuming 20,000 miles):

20,000 miles / 53mpg = 377 gallons of gas x 2.55 = $962 per year

And remember, less than half of the Prius' on the road are getting near that mileage. Real world (=American Habit) driving will yield more like 40 MPG. The 50-55 MPG was achieved by Toyota testers on proving grounds with the final result of selling automobiles.

[Joe Baker]

How about running on hydrogen? We could get that from sea water.

I don't remember who it was that pointed this out (somebody on the radio), but hydrogen would NOT be an energy source, but an energy storage technology. It takes more energy to separate the hydrogen and oxygen than the hydrogen will yield. So we'd have to burn coal, split atoms, dam rivers, catch wind, or SOMEHOW generate electrical power to get the hydrogen.

There are newer types of windmills that are supposd to dramatically decrease the number of birds killed. Hopefully that will get the definition of "a few birds" down.
__________________________________
Joe Baker, who knows that generating electricity is a dirty business.

[Gorilla Tuba]

1.95 in Joplin, Mo... where we do most of our shopping

[Dean]

Since this post has revived a bit...


Just today, down to $1.99 in Woodbridge, VA.


Imagine its a little cheaper the further south on 95 you go.

[WilliamVance]

It's 2.35/gal. at an Arco in Huntington Beach, Ca. Much better that where it was even a month ago. I filled up 11 days before and it was 2.54. Let's hope gas prices continue on this track, but I don't suspect that'll be the case.

[ken k]

I paid $2.019 yesterday. I imagine we will be under $2.00 soon, Yippee!!!

Isn't it curious how the major oil companies had record profits during the quarter when we were all paying $3.00 a gallon for gas. And, at a time when they are paying more for a barrell of crude than they ever have before, no less. Gee, I wonder what is up with that.

And all the king's (GWB) horses and all the kings men (oil companies) lived happily ever after... any of you right wingers have a theory about that? Oooops sorry no politics......

ken k

[sc_curtis]

Yes, the "theory" is that the gas price problem is a little more complex than just the president and his oil "buddies". There are way too many moving parts in that equation to simply say "That son-of-a-gun, look what he's doin to help out his buddies!"

BTW, I'd post how much gas down here costs, but I'm too lazy to convert liters into gallons and pesos into dollars. Plus, I never really know how much it costs anyways, seeing as its all regulated, and the prices are never posted on huge signs. I could get out and check on the pump, but then the guy who pumps the gas would probably freak out. (Haven't found a self-serve station yet!)

[ThomasDodd]

Isn't it curious how the major oil companies had record profits during the quarter when we were all paying $3.00 a gallon for gas. And, at a time when they are paying more for a barrell of crude than they ever have before, no less. Gee, I wonder what is up with that.

It's a lie I tell you, a lie.

The oil companies made very little profit on there sales.
Compared to the drug or semiconductor companies, they didn't do very well.

BP had Q3 profit of $4.4B (after paying $2.6B in taxes)on sales of $47.6B.
That's 9 cents, ($0.092) profit for ever dollar in sales.
Exxon, made $9.9 on $ 96.7 less than a dime per dollar.

Pfizer on the other hand made 13 cents per dollar. That's $1.6B profit on $12.2B in sales
Intel, 20 cents/dollar ( $1.995B on $9.96B)

Yet I don't hear any one screaming about excessive profits from them?

[Gorilla Tuba]

Bloke said, "I owe my aunt in Pittsburg another visit this winter. Since you don't have much to do (gov't job ) we need to get together and blast through a few tuber duets. "

I'd like to blow through some duets, or at least have a cup of coffee or other malted beverage. Kushy govt job... that really is funny! I really need to go remind my boss that all I am supposed to do is teach a few lessons, practice my horn, and chill.

Let me know when your in town, we should meet. Gas is still under 2 bucks on "the Missouri side."

[tubatooter1940]

Gas was $2.18 today and I doubt we will ever see it South of two dollars.

[Lew]

Gas was $2.18 today and I doubt we will ever see it South of two dollars.

I've seen it at $1.969 in Virginia this week.