Bach Cello Suite 1

[BopEuph]

--and even recordings on the 'cello piccolo, which some purists insist was the intent of the sixth suite.

In the Anna Magdalena Bach Manuscript version (see below), there was a note before the prelude of the sixth suite that the tuning was: C,G,d,a,e1. That is, it's the standard tuning for the cello, but an extra string tuned a fifth higher on the instrument. No one knows what the intended instrument was, but the violoncello piccolo was considered. The instrument was arm-held, like the viola, but an octave lower, and had five strings. Also, Leopold Mozart has described the cello in his violin method of 1756 as such:

"The seventh kind (of violin) is called the bass-viol, or, as the Italians called it, the violoncello. Formerly this had five strings, but now only four."

So Bach still may have intended this piece for a cello, just not how we conceive it today.

But the Bach suites for 'cello may not even be the work of old Johann:

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1617989.htm

It is widely accepted that Anna Magdalena Bach's handwriting is the most original version that we have, but it is also accepted that she was doing the copywork for J.S. at that time. Because of this belief, many publications vary because they look at different texts. Thus, if Anna Magdalena's copy is secondhand, maybe the other texts are, as well.

Anyways, my opinion on playing it is this: get as many recordings of this piece as you can. This is a gimme. But, this one is not: I have been looking into the Barrenreiter Urtext version of this. Not only is there an Urtext version, but the publishing house also decided to reprint the original manuscripts of five different publications (commonly referred to in modern publications as versions A through E). This is a seven volume set, and one of the volumes is what I believe to be vastly important. It's a booklet of performance practice of the suites.

The other volumes are absolutely great for comparison. You can find through the volumes anything that might help with making the execution of the piece easier for performance, like varying techical or phrasing ideas.

Oh, and to answer the original question: I arrpeggiate. I had a lesson with Janos Starker, and he dug it. However, I did omit certain notes that I thought made the arrpeggiation sound forced. Mr. Starker either didn't notice, or he didn't point any of them out.

Nick

[BopEuph]

Just my point, Mike. Great study works, but not particularly something you'd want to perform, particularly if you were playing to an audience of 'cellists.

I actually did perform one of the suites with a complete cello studio listening back in my days at FSU. I had more compliments by cellists that day than I did whenever I played euphonium literature.

Nick

[Chuck(G)]

[quote="BopEuph"]I actually did perform one of the suites with a complete cello studio listening back in my days at FSU. I had more compliments by cellists that day than I did whenever I played euphonium literature.[quote]

Congratulations, Nick! But what does that say about the state of euphonium literature?

[BopEuph]

Congratulations, Nick! But what does that say about the state of euphonium literature?

Actually, I don't think it has anything to do with the state of euphonium literature. I have always had what I consider a standard amount of compliments (whether or not it was deserved is besides the point). I am just saying that it is possible to perform the literature with success. The compliments that day were all pretty much the same from everyone I talked to that day: they said they enjoyed it, and that they would have never conceived it played on the euphonium, and that I have adapted it to the instrument nicely. That's what I am saying. I'm sure Oystein gets more attention about Fnugg than any other piece he's performed, does that mean everything else he performs is meaningless?

Nick

[Chuck(G)]

...they said they enjoyed it, and that they would have never conceived it played on the euphonium, and that I have adapted it to the instrument nicely. That's what I am saying. I'm sure Oystein gets more attention about Fnugg than any other piece he's performed, does that mean everything else he performs is meaningless?

No, of course not! And you managed to impress some 'cello folks with your rendition. Bravo!--that's something to be very proud of.

But low brass players (perhaps tuba moreso than euphonium) run the risk of becoming a novelty act.

While there's nothing wrong with being a novelty act, it can get in the way of being taken seriously. And I'm pretty sure that there are those who would consider any tuba solo to be a novelty. One needs to be aware of this.

Several tuba players have done some remarkable renderings of operatic selections. But who would want to hear the entire Barber of Seville performed on tuba? It's clearly a novelty and there's nothing wrong with novelty in small doses. If I really want to hear Figaro sing, I'll take a baritone (the human kind, not the sheet metal product).

Where we run the risk of trouble is in losing sight of the novelty component. I think that considering the Bach 'Cello suites as a performance vehicle comes very close to crossing the line.

On the other hand, I find that using operatic selections for practice and study improves my musical sense and are valuable in that way.

Does this make sense?

[BopEuph]

That makes perfect sense. Like Arnie said, he practices music for other instruments all the time, but that doesn't mean he plays it in public.

Nick

[zeign7]

This is an age old arguement for sure, however, I think we may be missing a few points. If you are saying that we should only perform pieces that were originally written for tuba or euphonium then you are really limiting yourself. There are NO baroque compositions written for tuba that were written during that time period. What do trombonists and euphoniumists play? Galliard Bassoon Sonatas, Telemann Flute Sonatas, any of these ringing a bell? I think you would be hard pressed to find classical music that was written for the tuba, in fact, it wouldn't be written for the tuba, but rather the ophicleide. If you play a piece originally written for cello on tuba and it sounds like a tuba, who cares? As long as the music sounds good right? I would hardly consider a piece of music that has survived the test of time a novelty act simply because it is being played on the tuba. Perhaps it is the mindset that playing older literature on a newer instrument makes it a novelty act that needs to be changed.

Why would you want to practice and learn the baroque style of playing and never perform it? That doesn't make any sense at all. I ama composer and I fully understand the need to perform music origianlly written for the tuba and euphonium but to abandon all other music seems like a waste to me. The way I look at it, if it will work for my instrument and I enjoy it then I will perform it and make it sound better than it did on the original instrument

I do understand that if we do not play literature that is written for the instrument, people will stop writing for the instrument and it will be a downhill spiral from there. I also understand that novelty pieces exist and playing the entire barber of seville on tuba may well be considered that by some. However, it is also important not to forsake the music of the past; I would hardly consider a performance of a cello suite by any composer of any time period on tuba a novelty act.

If you are willing to give up more than half of the musical styles and well over 3/4 of the music out there because it was written for a different instrument then be my guest. I am not ready to make that sacrifice.

[Chuck(G)]

Whatever works for you. I suspect that a fair number of the mainstream music audience consider solo tuba to be novelty, even if it's the Vaughan WIlliams bass tuba concerto. But then, I suspect that they also consider Dragonetti, Bottesini, etc. for solo double bass novelty works also. I'm not familiar with the solo repertoire for contrabassoon, but I'm sure it exists--and I'd certainly consider that to be in the novelty category.

I suppose that it depends upon how you think of a tuba. I tend to think of it as a color instrument and not a solo voice--and I think that's the role it plays in most orchestral and band music.

But then, I think of a euphonium as a band instrument almost exclusively. I'm certain that there are some evangelistic souls who consider the euphonium to be the equal of the violin, but they'd be in the minority.

None of this, of course, prevents me from playing anything I want in the privacy of my practice sessions. Playing other instrumental (or vocal) works helps me fulfill the role of a color instrument by better understanding the music.

[drow2buh]

Funny story, I just got handed this by my college Wind Ensemble director as part of the tuba audition packet for this fall. It's the third movement, Bourree I. Sh*t may hit the fan when I ask this question, but what do you all think for tempo on this particular movement, if you're familiar w/ the piece?

[Tabor]

I think if a piece sounds good and communicates something, then we shouldn't feel bad about playing it. It may not sound like a cello when played on a tuba, but if it sounds beautiful and musical, it can sound different and rather than being a novelty, can further the public view of the tuba as a legitimate solo instrument. It isn't any different than performing Czardas or the clarinet polka on the tuba. (and isn't much different than performing a Bach fugue on the piano or Pictures with an orchestra)

I don't think that Bach, a church musician and educator would take offense, even if we aren't able to play the double stops the same way. Bach wrote the cello sonate for an instrument which was, at the time, viewed as primarily an accompanying instrument (like the tuba is today) but he had a player who could play beautifully and Bach featured this instrument as a solo vehicle.

[sandiegotuba]

I know I am not the most educated of musicians, but I think the arguement against performing the Cello Suites let alone any music written for another instrument is sheer ignorance. If you can play something tastefully and do it well why not do it? The debate over what could be construed as a "novelty act" is subject to your personal opinion. If you limit your performing possibilities you limit your personal development.

[Chuck(G)]

The Bouree's a dance, not frantic, but lively. Play it at a speed that can be danced.

Here's a nice description of the movements involved:

http://larkinthemorning.com/article.asp ... 1155611635

[windshieldbug]

If you can play something tastefully and do it well why not do it?